Weapons of Mass Persuasion With Bushra Azhar

Founder & Chief Trouble Maker of The Persuasion Revolution – Bushra Azhar

The fastest way to go from a clueless rookie to a master persuader. One trick that makes persuasion instantly more effortless and fun. What is “Mass Persuasion Method” and how to use it to win over almost everyone. The 8 Persuasion Switches you need to click in every person you’re dealing with to get to an immediate “Yes!” How to instantly become more likeable and believable. The difference in persuasion tactics when closing $1 Million dollar deals vs interviewing for a job. How to make people like you more by being less perfect. The “dark” science of turning on the desire in people for your product on a deep and visceral level.

ThePersuasionRevolution.com – Helping Tiny Businesses Make Big Bucks Using The Psychology of Persuasion

Other Resources Mentioned in the Podcast:

• The Ultimate Guide to Persuasion (no optin required, this is a direct link to the file)
• The parody video she mentioned
• Bushra’s Private Facebook Group
• The Persuasion Show

Thanks so much for listening!

Transcript: Download

Jaime:	Welcome to Eventual Millionaire. I'm Jaime Masters and today on the show I'm really excited to have Bushra Azhar. She actually runs an amazing site called ThePersuasionRevolution.com. She says it's a science, not an art, for persuasion. So I'm so excited to have her on. Thanks so much for coming on today.

Bushra:	Thank you so much for having me, Jaime. It's such a pleasure to be meeting over two different continents.

Jaime:	You are so happy and excited. I love that. So tell me a little bit more about why it is a science and not an art because most people are like, "I'm an introvert; I just can't do it."

[00:04:04]

Bushra:	It's really interesting because I used to think for a really long time - I was born in a country - I come from a culture where if you're nota pretty little boy, then basically your chances at life are not that great. So I was always good at getting a yes, and I always thought that I was inherently good at manipulating people.

Jaime:	I love that.

Bushra:	Maybe I was just a sneaky, little bitch. So I actually knew how to manipulate people. Only recently when I got into consulting, and I was always good at getting a yes, going into a pitch presentation and locking million dollar contracts and I realized there actually is a method to this madness and I can actually teach it. So I started training my associate consultants on the method and the process. I saw people transform right in front of my eyes, becoming these shark tank participant-style pitch skills.

[00:05:06]	I was like, you know what? There is totally a method to this madness. That's why, because I've gone through this transition myself; it really is a science and not something that somebody's inherently born with.

Jaime:	I adore this, especially since I have a 7-year-old little girl, and I'm like she is - I'm trying not to say the word manipulative - but I'm like ea hardcore negotiator. Like, I'm trying to reframe it because she's got that innately maybe from someone I know, you know. But if somebody feels like they're not good at it, sometimes they resist it. so I would love to do in this interview is really start going through what is that process that someone can listen to this and feel way more confident to go about it. So you tell me, what is step one?

Bushra:	Really I think the step one is to understand that persuasion, the way I define it and I think the way we should see it is it's not something that one person does to the other person.

[00:06:00]	Persuasion instead is something that a person does to herself in response to the stimulus that you expose her to. And really, what your control is what stimuli do you expose her to. You could crawl inside her brain - I wish I could. But you can't crawl inside a brain and make her nod her head and say yes. What you can do is expose her to the right stimuli. And if you know what that right stimulus is, not only is a yes painless and non-icky, it's also actually kind of fun.

	So really I think the very first thing is to understand that it's not something that you do to the other person; it's something that a person does to herself. And one of the things that I did when I was in consulting, I developed something called the mass persuasion method. I used to call it the client persuasion method but now in online context I call it the mass persuasion method. 

[00:07:00]	And really the idea behind mass persuasion method is to treat a human being like an electric circuit. If you really want to spark attention and approval from that electric circuit, you need to switch on certain switches. It's very, very scientific. It all boils down to clicking those eight persuasion switches and once you have done that, the yes is automatic.

Jaime:	I love this. I love methods to things like this. And I also love that you made the distinction between ickyness because that's the thing. I feel like if you get them - let's say you have a little thing and you make them say yes, later they're just going to say no. They'll be like: oh, never mind; I really didn't mean to say yes. And that's not what we want, either; that's a pain. You're like; yeah, I got the sale! Oh, wait never mind; they want their money. So tell us how -

Bushra:	Buyer's remorse.

Jaime:	How do we go through those eight switches? What are they?

[00:08:00]

Bushra:	Really the first switch, which I think is really, really important in an online context is what I like to call the relatability switch. I think most people online when they show up - actually, not just even online. I think most people when they show up in an interaction with another person, we think that we need to have this premium positioning, and we need to look perfect and everything needs to be spic and span. But the reality is that in psychology there is something called the propinquity effect, which means that people like people who are like them. And relatability switch is all about being relatable; where I can look at you and think: oh, my God, she's just like me. 

	That one, small element changes everything. Most people online, they're like: oh, my God, I am sipping an expensive champagne on a yacht, and there are all these pictures of them looking all expensive and rich. But that's not relatable to the person you're trying to sell to. 

[00:09:00] 	So really the very first thing is to appear in a more relatable manner. Even if your brand is premium, do make sure that you share some of your struggle, some of your human element so that people can actually relate to who you are. That's the foundation for everything, really.

Jaime:	I love that, especially because at the very beginning I feel like you did this. You're like, "What a great blue shirt and necklace." And I'm like, "You're wearing a blue shirt and necklace, too." So I'm like, "Oh, we're the same," even though of course it's the blue shirt but still to me, it definitely helped break the ice because we've never actually met like this beforehand. So I love that one, especially since we do think we're supposed to be like super cool when we meet someone. So a quick question on these eight. Do they have to go in order? Okay, good. So it's not like do the first one, check; do the next one. Okay, what's the next one?

Bushra:	Absolutely they don't. But the interesting thing about these are that there are certain conversations. Like if you're closing a million dollar contract you need to make sure you hit all eight switches.

[00:10:00]	But if you're only showing up on media for example, or you're sending a pitch to someone to interview you for your podcast, such as you, you probably need to hit maybe just two or three switches and don't have to go through the whole mass persuasion manipulation, alien envision of Jaime's brand. We don't have <p data-wpview-marker="%5Baudio%20cuts%20out%5D">.</p>.

Jaime:	Phew, no pressure.

Bushra:	But again, relatability switch, it's not just about what you say. It's also about how you show up, what symbols you carry through in your message. So for example, when it comes to my brand, I would never show up like this because my people would be like: what happened to you? Who took over your body? This is a lot of makeup. You're wearing a necklace? Are you sure? So there are certain things that I do, also because I'm really lazy and I would rather sleep in than do anything.

[00:11:00]	But also because I want to be relatable to my people. I don't want to appear too perfect because again, there is something called the pratfall effect in psychology, which is all about the fact that human beings like others whoa re less than perfect. So when you appear less than perfect, not only is it more charming and endearing, it's also relatable; it makes you relatable. So basically that's the first switch.

	The second switch is what I like to call the believability switch, where your job is to convince your potential buyer or your potential client to believe you and your product, which everyone talks about. You need to convince them to believe you and your product. But there is one other more nefarious angle that most people don't talk about, which is you need to also convince them in their own ability to get the results. 

[00:12:00]	That's a very subtle thing but we used to see that a lot in corporate, and I see that also in online business. Where they believe you, they believe your product, they're absolutely sold to their product. But they think to themselves: I am such a loser; I would never be able to get those results. When that angle of believability is missing, you could have the absolute best product in the world but they will not be able to buy it because they don't believe in their own ability. That's basically the second angle; the believability switch, the second switch.

Jaime:	That makes so much sense, especially with testimonials. Some people are like: of course that guy can do it because he's amazing but I couldn't. And then they don't buy, and people are like: but I had so many testimonials!

Bushra:	Yes, and it's really interesting. There's a very easy way to switch on that angle, the believability switch and that's using these two words. The words are "even if." That's it. 

[00:13:00] 	So for example, when I released Mass Persuasion Method, a course that I have, I said, "Yes you can write high converting, super persuasive copy." That's a statement. They look at that statement and they think, "Yeah but you don't know what a sucky writer I am." That's what they're thinking.

Jaime:	That's what I would say.

Bushra:	I include a statement in there that says, "Yes you can write high converting, super persuasive copy even if you can barely write a grocery list." These two words are what make them believe in their own ability to get those results. And a lot of people don't worry about that; they just worry about making them believe them and their product but also make them believe themselves.

Jaime:	Okay, I adore this, too. What's three?

Bushra:	Three is - okay, there are two switches that I don't like to talk about anymore because online businesses are kind of killing those; they're overdoing it. One of those is curiosity switch and the other one is urgency switch. 

[00:14:00]	We all know that curiosity gets people to pay attention but a lot of people are just doing it in a way where it makes you want to reach into your computer, grab them by the throat and press their neck because they're just -

Jaime:	Yeah, no kidding. I'm like; come on, guys! Yes, I agree.

Bushra:	And the same goes for urgency. We all know that curiosity works; we all know that urgency works. But unfortunately because people have started using it in a very unethical way, it's come to a point where it's? I won't say it's stopped working. It still works but it creates a negative good will. You lose your good will when you use click rate. So two switches that I don't like to emphasize a lot on now, even though there is psychological proof, there is scientific proof that they work; one is curiosity and the other is urgency. But we need to be really careful about using it because as usual, marketeers spoil everything and they'll spoil it for us.

[00:15:01]	But yeah. That's a fact of life. So the fifth switch is the desirability switch. The desirability switch is all about we all know that you need to paint a picture of a better future with your product. But there's one extra element to it. So yes, they need to be able to desire it in a way, when you describe your product or your service or whatever you're selling, they need to be able to see it in their mind's eye and feel it. It's not just about saying, - I was just talking about this. 

	I was recording the training and I was saying this. You don't just say, "Imagine waking up in the morning and grabbing a cup of coffee." Instead, you need to say, "Imagine waking up in the morning, your warm feet stepping on the cold floor, curling up on the sofa with a warm cup of coffee and then savoring the sweet, bitter flavor of the coffee as it goes?"

[00:16:00]	You paint a picture with such visceral phrases that the person can actually see herself living that. And I think that really is what desirability switch is all about. It's not just saying imagine making a lot of money; it's about saying imagine fattening yourself with hundred-dollar bills. It sounds so, so icky but that's what desirability is all about. Paint a picture where they can see themselves inside that picture doing those things that you're describing.

Jaime:	I have a question on this because I get that, and you see the best marketers doing some of this. Where is that line when you're in person? Because you know, you'd be like, "Okay, close your eyes. Imagine yourself in bed." You're like: okay wait, never mind; that's not good for a sales call. So where is that line? Because I totally understand when you're working with copy and that way; we're trying to get them to feel it. But how do we do that same thing, that switch in person?

[00:17:00]

Bushra:	That's a beautiful question and I have the perfect story for this. When I was in consulting, I live and work in Saudi Arabia. I don't know whether you know this but there are gold mines in Saudi Arabia, too. So we had the opportunity to pitch to a company that basically owned all the mines, including Glamenia, Mentgold and all of that. It was a really big project and we were pitching against really big consulting companies. 

	One of the things we did to activate the desirability switch is that we actually created, as a part of the pitch - now, we are pitching as consultants. We are not an advertising agency. We are pitching as a corporate social responsibility consultant. We are talking about how their social community programs can help the company. So we go in for the pitch and we go in with an actual promo video of the community program. 

[00:18:00] 	We custom created a video of their community programs, press releases, the [inaudible] piece called Modern, with the Modern logo, newscasters announcing what they are doing in the community and we played that video. And yes, needless to say we won that contract. Because you are not just saying close your eyes and imagine. You're saying, "You know what? If you work with us, if you let us craft your community programs, this is what happens." And you play the video and they're like, oh, my God.

Jaime:	That's times ten what probably anyone else did. You actually brought the deliverable thing to them directly. Okay, so they felt it.

Bushra:	Maybe the McKinseys of the world - we were pitching against McKinsey so maybe the McKinseys of the world would be like: oh, we're never going to do this; that's too dramatic. But maybe it is a bit dramatic but it got us the contract and it really makes people live - that the CEO can see himself sitting down for an interview with a regional television talking about his programs, which is a big deal.

[00:19:01]

Jaime:	Now you can fan yourself with gold. That doesn't work as well, though.

Bushra:	The wings of [inaudible] are made of gold.

Jaime:	So now anyone that's going to pitch you is going to get a gold fan and fan you, just so you know. Alright, so what's number six?

Bushra:	I need to remember what number six is. When you asked number six, I was like, do you have my notes? Which one is number six?

Jaime:	Seriously.

Bushra:	So yeah, we talked about desirability switch, we talked about believability switch. We talked about urgency, curiosity. Seriously?

Jaime:	People used to do this to me. They'd ask me specific things in chapters in my book and I'd be like: oh, crap.

[Crosstalk]

Bushra:	I'm really sorry; I will need to look that up. Oh shit, I can't believe I did this.

Jaime:	That's awesome. I'm actually really, really glad that you did that. See, it makes you way more relatable. Alright, then do you remember seven and eight because we'll need to go over those.

Bushra:	It makes me look like [inaudible] I need to tell you about placenta brain. 

[00:20:00]	I would clearly that? A woman, once she gives birth and she passes the placenta, with the placenta she passes a part of her brain. Yeah, so I have two children which means that I have lost quite a bit of my brain.

Jaime:	Me, too. How old are your kids?

Bushra:	8 and 10 but honestly, I'm serious. It's the placenta brain. It's not me, I promise. It's not me.

Jaime:	See, okay I have the best memory ever, like literally can remember birthdays from my second grade class. And I had children and I am horrible. I don't know what it is. I'm so glad that I'm not alone.

Bushra:	That's the placenta brain.

Jaime:	I can blame it on something else. I love it.

Bushra:	Shit, I can't believe [inaudible] . I have to look for the switches. I can't believe that. God, I need to be ashamed of myself because I [inaudible] oh I'm sorry, I'm sorry. [Inaudible].

Jaime:	We will bleep you, just so you know. I'm Googling it.

Bushra:	Are you guys recording this?

Jaime:	So I can help you. Yes, I'm still recording.

Bushra:	Yeah, please.

Jaime:	I'm sure you have a blog post on it so I'm Googling it also.

Bushra:	No, don't Google it. I've got it.

[Crosstalk]

Jaime:	Alright, ready? I love this, by the way. You seem so relatable right now.

Bushra:	Okay so we are at - where are we?

Jaime:	Six.

Bushra:	[Inaudible] I'm sorry. We are at - no, we are at six. Yes, okay fine. Okay. Got it. I've got it! I promise. I promise. I did not pay someone on [inaudible] to write this. I promise I wrote it myself. Okay. So the next one is the [inaudible] switch. The idea behind the press feed switch is when we try to sell to someone, we think that we are selling to them a product or a service.

[00:22:01]	And my favorite example of that is a lawn mower. So if you're selling a lawn mower, you think to yourself: I am going to talk about what a great, high powered battery operated motor this lawn mower has. And that's basically the feature. So a lot of people focus on features. People whoa re a little bit smarter, they focus on benefits. So they would say: oh, it has a high capacity motor and it can give you a lush, green lawn in 30 minutes. But here's the rub. People don't just buy the benefits. 

	People buy things that elevate their social status. So really when someone is buying that super expensive lawn mower, they're not just buying a lush, green lawn. What they are essentially buying is the fact that that lush, green lawn is going to make their fat, dirty neighbor feel like shit because he's gonna be like: oh, my God, how rich are these people?

[00:23:01]	So really [inaudible] streaming, whatever you're selling, whatever you're trying to pitch, selling it in a way that how does that thing elevate the social status of that person; how does that make them look a little bit better, make them look a little bit richer, or make them look a bit better amongst their peers. And that really - when I was in academia and I used to help my students, I used to teach MBA and I used to help my students write college essays for scholarships. 

	One of the things that people focused on was that when you talk about what great talent you have that you can offer that particular college, don't just talk about the fact that I have this talent and I can - you know, and I can help you. Instead, say it in this way: because I have this talent, that means your college, once they have me, they can win all of these debate competitions, or all of these science competitions or whatever.

[00:24:00] 	So every offer that you have, try and frame it in a way that makes the other person feel like it will elevate their social status. Because we all want to be rich and beautiful and sexy and in the know and we want people to tell us how great, rich, and sexy we are. Except us. If you are from my culture, you can't tell someone that they're rich because that's considered extraction inappropriate.

Jaime:	Sexy, [inaudible] and rich, no go.

[Crosstalk]	They don't like my show, for sure. So how do we do that? Because the thing is, it's one thing to listen and go: okay, that makes sense. And a lot of people I know will go: okay, I understand the features and benefits and we'll rework our product based on that. But when we try and start going: okay, now what is the mind of our client; what do they care about socially, how do we actually try to figure that out? Especially if it's not like you'll look prettier, you know what I mean? One of the normal things.

[00:25:00]

Bushra:	I think whatever you are selling, there has to be - I like to call it benefit beneath the benefit. There will always be a benefit beneath the benefit. Another example, for example, is a recipe book. Your recipe book allows Mom to create healthy, great meals in under 30 minutes so that's the benefit. But then the benefit beneath the benefit, when you think about benefit beneath the benefit, try and see what is the prestige angle associated with it. So in this case, it's because all moms universal, regardless of culture, struggle with mom-hood and we want that label of the best mom. We want to -

Jaime:	Super mom.

Bushra:	Super mom. Even if we say we aren't super moms, we really want that validation that we - that's our prestige switch. So if you can even tie that to a recipe book, and it may not seems like a [00:26:00] direct connection.

[00:26:00]	But you need to understand that for a mother, even though making the meal in 30 minutes seems like a benefit, really the benefit is so that she can spend more time with her kids; do arts and crafts and all those crappy activities that kids like to do and mess with your brain. And then be known as - be seen as the super mom, or the best mom, or the cool mom, or the great mom because that's our prestige switch.

Jaime:	That is so perfect. I actually have a client who runs EatAtHomeCooks.com and she has meal plans. And we were going okay, where is - so the benefits are easy to figure out. Like you've got time savings, you're this savings, you're that savings. And that's a really extremely valid point. Because it's not as though you're delivering these meals to your friends, where you're like: look how amazing. Because I make desserts, and I'm like, "Look how amazing I am; here you go." But it is, like wait, look how amazing a mom I am. And then I was able to - yeah, okay, that makes so much sense. I will [inaudible] -

[Crosstalk]

Bushra:	That's why Samsung now came out - and I say this a lot.

[00:27:01]	It's really interesting. I'm a Samsung fan. Samsung phone now came out with a picture - it's a specific food filter. I was thinking to myself, why do we need a food filter? And again, it ties into prestige. If you're eating at a fancy restaurant and you have this fancy food plate in front of you, or you cooked something that's really nice and fancy, you want to use that fancy food filter and then boast about it; post it on social media. I just crushed some dates and nuts and made them into small balls, and I took a picture with my Samsung and I promise it looked like gourmet food.

Jaime:	We are such attention seekers, right? We're like: no, wait, look, did you see what I did? Mom, look, did you see this? You're right, though; you're totally right. Awesome. So let's go to seven and eight because I want to make sure we have enough time to talk about your business, because I'm so intrigued by that, also.

[00:28:00]

Bushra:	Okay so number seven, comparing switch. And comparing switch is all about showing the other person why you are the best option amongst all options. And I know there are a lot of people who will be like; oh, I don't believe in competition, and there is no competition and it's all - there's [inaudible] but the reality is, your potential buyer, your prospect is doing a comparison in her head. If you don't address the differences between you and your other alternatives, they are going to do the comparison in their head. 

	And when they do the comparison in their head, they may not arrive at the conclusion that you want them to arrive at. Support them in doing the comparison. Allow them to do the comparison. And even if you think you?re not competing against anyone, which is something that I hear: Oh, I am not competing against anyone. You're still competing against unknown. You're still competing against another person who has the option to say no. so do that comparison. 

[00:29:00]	If that means putting up a table, which I did on one of my recent programs; I actually had a table on my sales page that said "This is what my program is, this is what all the other programs are." Really address it right because people are thinking it so why not enable them to make that comparison?

Jaime:	How do you do that? Because in checklist form it's easy but how do we do that without sounding negative about our competition? I remember my mentor would be like: never say anything bad about your competition, like "those people suck." So you'd have to sort of frame it like that's a choice, also. But how can we really show that we're better without being mean about it?

Bushra:	I think we don't need to - I love this question because I hear this all the time. I know you're going to beep it but I am a complete and utter bitch. I really do not care. If I see something that's really sleazy, I'm going to call you out on that. So yeah, that doesn't apply to me but there are nicer people out there. 

[00:30:00] 	So for those nice people, the way I position it is you're not pointing fingers to the person. You're [inaudible] pointing fingers; you're drawing comparisons to the method, to the process. So I would always draw comparisons between strategies and outcomes, not between people. We're not doing comparisons between people; we're doing comparisons between strategies and outcomes. That's what you [inaudible].

Jaime:	Yeah, just different choices. Everybody in the world as a human being is great but you can make - you know? I like that. I'm too nice, so yes.

Bushra:	Yeah, everybody in the world is a human being is not great.

Jaime:	Alright, I know. Deal, you're right. You're earning your name. I love it. okay, so what's the next one?

Bushra:	The last one is the entertainment switch. The entertainment switch is I am of the firm belief that no matter what setting you're in, no matter what industry you're in, if you can entertain people in any way, you have them. 

[00:31:00]	 I hear that a lot. People are like: oh, the world is an information overload we have so much information; no one wants more information. And my question to these people is: if there is so much information and people are in information overload, what are they doing being stuck to their phones? What are they looking for in their phones? What they're looking for is entertainment.

	If you can position whatever your teaching, whatever you're selling, even your freaking sales page, even your sales call, even your presentation; if you can position them in an entertaining way, it really works. And I know you're going to ask that question so I'm going to answer it because I can see it in your eyes.

Jaime:	I don't even have to say anything. This is great.

Bushra:	[Inaudible] [Audio cuts out] How do we do it in an in-person setting? I am a Pakistani [inaudible] in Saudi Arabia.

[00:32:02]	And that means that I have done presentations sometimes in offices where women are not allowed. And if I can go in and do a presentation and crack jokes, then honestly anyone can do it. because I remember when I had a pitch presentation and two hours before the meeting we were told, "Oh by the way, women cannot enter the building." And I was like okay? so which surgery do I need to perform on myself to make that happen? So yeah, if I can do it, honestly you can still do it. you don't have to crack a weird joke but you can still make it entertaining, no matter what you're teaching.

Jaime:	Okay, this is what's so funny. I went to your website - and everybody should go to your website anyway, definitely. But not only just to read the amazing context because I got sucked in. you are such a great copy writer. I felt like I knew you as a human and because you're funny, when I was reading the copy. Which made me also a lot more relaxed on this side.

[00:33:00]	Because I was like: she's gonna be great; we're gonna get along well, which is really important like you're saying. So I couldn't stop reading, which is definitely important because I also love the other side of it where I'm like: damn girl, you did a good job. So make sure everybody checks it out because I feel like people think that the teaching method has to be really boring when we're talking about website copy and stuff like that. And that is not true at all, and you've done an excellent job of that which I appreciate.

Bushra:	Thank you. [Inaudible]. Oh yes, oh, my God. Because I was like, what else am I going to forget? What is my husband's name again? Yeah, okay.

Jaime:	That actually would be awesome and hilarious and entertaining. There you go. We're trying to hit every persuasion button when we go through this. I wanted to talk about your business because especially with your website, you have program and that sort of stuff but you only started a few years ago and you're crushing it, and you don't have a team. So please, I would love a little  synopsis - because you already had experience with business.

[00:34:02]	It's not like you weren't a consultant and stuff like that. But when we're looking at somebody getting into this, how have you had such a fast trajectory of success?

Bushra:	So two things. One, you said about the team. And I think one of the reasons that I grew so fast, I think it's probably because I didn't have a team. And I know that sounds counterintuitive --

Jaime:	No, I love it. I get it. Continue, though, so people will get it.

Bushra:	Because I can think of things now, and I can launch it by 2 a.m. If I had - and that means that I literally know in and out of my business. I know every single thing that has to happen, from the website, to plug-ins, to updates, to payments; every single thing. And now I do have someone who helps me out, and she's absolutely fantastic. But I still respond to all of my emails on my own because I want to have that personal one-on-one connection with people.

[00:35:00]	And I think that's really one of the main reasons I grew so fast was because I was extremely lean. But the power and freedom that comes with dreaming a program, getting up in the morning and putting together the sales page and launching it; that freedom can only happen if you're extremely lean. I wish I could say that about the physical aspect of it; I wish I was extremely lean. That could only happen if I was extremely lean.

Jaime:	I wish I could outsource that; that'd be great. But that's sort of the whole point. It's funny, I don't think people ' a lot of people who are sort of in the beginning stages, they're like: "I have a team to do all the stuff I don't want." I literally spend hours planning out my scrum meeting for my hour-and-a-half team meeting on Monday. And I'm like: oh my gosh, I could probably just do all this work in three hours instead of making sure everybody's got their pieces. And so you're right. 

[00:36:00] 	So tell me how you - because the online - I know. I was still a geek and trying to go online, it's a totally different ball of wax. So how did you know what programs to launch an dhow to do that, even if you're good at copy, which you are; how do we actually sell it? you built a big list, and if you can say how big it is, how did you do that?

Bushra:	It's not a big list.

Jaime:	It's big for people; shush.

Bushra:	Yeah, but it's not big compared to the revenues that I have.

Jaime:	Seriously, yeah.

Bushra:	That's the point that I want to make. Since day one, list making was never my focus, simply because I did not understand the concept of list building. So I tried list building in the beginning. Everyone's like: oh, build a list, build a list. So I tried it and I was like: why am I gathering all these strangers on my list? Why am I paying for them? Because really, it was like a penny dropped when I realized that I should be creating a list of buyers, not a list of subscribers. 

[00:37:00] 	And when that happened, everything changed. So 20 percent of my list are buyers. And that really has changed everything for me. Even now, I would hesitate to just grow a list for the sake of growing a list. Because I don't want a list of freebie hunters. I don't want a list of people who just grab free stuff from me and treat me like a bloody library. I'm not a library! I'm a bookstore; treat me like a bookstore. Spend money. It's a business, right? So that makes me sound so money-hungry, I get it, I promise.

Jaime:	No. see, I think people need to hear this side of it because - no offense - but online, we are sold that just build a list and figure out what to sell them. And what I found over and over when people come to me, I-m like, "Your list is all over the place. You can-t even find one thing to sell to 12 percent of it, let alone the entire thing." To me, it-s a vanity metric. Unless you can actually sell something to these people - unless it-s a hobby; that-s separate. If it-s a hobby, that-s totally fine.

[00:38:00]	

Bushra:	I-m [inaudible], which is cool. I wish I had a fan club.

Jaime:	I do like wonderful emails. I'm a words of affirmation kind of lady. But what-s so interesting, and if you can share some of the numbers because your email list is 29,000, right?

Bushra:	About that now.

Jaime:	Which in two years is ridiculous. Most people, the trajectory goes pretty slow. So what was the main way of finding not only the 29,000 but those 20 percent buyers? What tactics and stuff have been working really well for you?

Bushra:	So the one thing that I - and that's something that I wish I could just print. I would have to skip too many continents to come to the U.S. to do that but I wish I could print billboards of those and share that with people. I was just having a discussion with someone in my group about this, about this idea that you should only be selling be premium offerings. I was telling them, I was like the problem with ' there is no problem. 

[00:39:00] 	There are many ways to do a business. But the way I have done it is I basically sat and I mapped out what I like to call a dread to dream journey. So take your ideal buyer and now tell dread to dream journey what's her dread situation and what's her dream situation. And then if you want to take her from the dread situation to the dream situation, what I did was I did not take her from dread to dream in one, fell swoop. Instead what I did was I created the first product, which was a 20 percent improvement product. 

	So I created something that moved her 20 percent closer to her dream. Because when you're just starting out and your first offer is a complete transformation offer, not only is it harder to create, it's also hard to sell. People don't freaking believe you, right? And you sometimes don't even believe yourself. But when you get a 20 percent offer, which only makes her miserable situation a little bit better, it's easier to create, it's easier to sell.

[00:40:01]	So my first program was a 20 percent offer, which was a $47.00 product. I had a list of 1,300 people and I sold 320 packages. Now, I was just asking this in my group. If I had a $2,000 product, how many do you think I would have sold? I would probably, if I were lucky, I would have probably sold two. But when I get those 320 people, now not only do I have 320 people who have opened their wallets and have bought from me, and I can keep selling to them again and again and again because Marketing 101, repeat buyers are so much easier than new buyers. 

	We know that. So that first step of getting those 320 buyers buying on the spot, because the product was a 20 percent product which means, going back to the eight persuasion switches, believability switch.

[00:41:01]	She can believe me, she can believe the product, and she can believe a little bit on her own ability because it is believable. It's not: oh, my God, that could never happen.

Jaime:	When I'm looking at your numbers, that's so incredible. I work with a lot of people with smaller email; just a couple thousand. And to sell that much of a ratio and percentage of your list is incredible - even a low priced product. and I love that you have a different name. I know Digital Marketer calls it a trip wire and I feel like that's so horrible, like we're trying to kill everybody. Like oh, let's go! But yours is like 20 percent improvement. To me, that's so much better. How the heck did you sell 320 out of 1,300? Number one, they're the right people is what it sounds like. But did you do a crazy launch? How many emails? We already know you're a good copy writer.

Bushra:	I collaborated with someone and we both combined on this. So it wasn't just my list. I collaborated - her list was the same size and together we sold 320. 

[00:42:00]	But that's the interesting part about that, and so many people don't believe this and that is exactly why I have a screenshot of this conversation so when somebody says I don't believe you, I can shove that in their face.

Jaime:	I love you already.

Bushra:	There's this amazing, amazing copy writer, her name is Laura. I'm a huge fan of hers and we were both in the same [inaudible] group. I posted my sales page link in the group; that was about two years ago when I had first started. I was like, "You know, my first sales page, I don't even know how to write copy. I've never written copy. I don't even know whether copy write is W-R-I-G-H-T or W-R-I-T-E. I'm that illiterate when it comes to copy, so what do you guys think?" She said to me, - I went to that sales page. I don't know you. I've never heard of you. I only saw the sales page and I bought on the spot because it was such a great offer. It was not my copy; it was my offer. And I say that over and over again. 

[00:43:00]	If your offer is great, a great offer trumps everything. It trumps great design, trumps great copy, trumps everything. Not the Trump Trump, but trump. So really, I think it all boils down to a great offer. And I still remember what she said. "It's unbelievable. I never do impulse buy but I just bought on the spot."

Jaime:	How did you get that great of an offer when it was your first offer ever? I mean I know you know the persuasion tactics; is that it or was there more?

Bushra:	I think it was that 20 percent improvement. So I knew exactly what their dread was and then I created something that was - and it's not just me. A lot of my clients have done exactly that. One of my clients, she created her 20 percent product and she just put it up on her website. She did not email it to anyone, no one. Someone came to her website, stumbled on that sales page by mistake and bought it on the spot. And she was like, "How does that even happen?" 

[00:44:00] 	No pitch, no ads, nothing. And it's not just - again, you kind of - when you do your 20 percent, then your next step is obviously to create your 40 percent, and then you create your 60 percent. And then you create your total transformation. I like to call this launch stacking. You stack your launches in a way that you end up with a portfolio of products, and really that portfolio of products has given me all the revenue that I have. 

	All great businesses do that. All great businesses have portfolios of products. Why don't we? Why do we only have one program or two programs? We should also create portfolios. So I think that portfolio of 20 percent, 40 percent, 60 percent, and total transformation, that portfolio and that launch stacking has allowed me to grow so quickly.

Jaime:	Okay so I adore this, also. So a lot of people read Digital Marketer and the talk about funnels and blah, blah, blah; they're trying to make it super sexy. And we're like: it's a portfolio of products, people.

[00:45:00] 	I just know that people come to me and they're like, "I need a funnel." And I'm like, "No, you need a business that has things that sell." You know what I mean? Yes. And I get sales funnels and all that fun stuff. My mentor taught me years and years ago when it wasn't the cool thing on digital marketing, which I love Digital Marketer and I love what they teach in general because it's genius. 

	But the way that you're framing it is really important. So can you just go through what your products look like, just names and price points so we can get an idea of what a 20 percent thing is, what a 40 percent thing is, all the way up? Because you have seven figures in revenue in two years, which is insane. So please, enlighten us.

Bushra:	The first product was 20 percent improvement, it was called "Three Day Three K." It was a program that was all about creating a landing page that gets you 3,000 subscribers in three days. It was called "Three Day Three K." I think the name was really punchy too so it that helped.

Jaime:	[Inaudible] Seven days to One K. Man, I should have done Three Days to Three K. No, I'm kidding. But even a 3,000 person email list is really impressive. Okay.

[00:46:01]

Bushra:	So Three Day, Three K was the first product. It was a $47.00 product. The second product is what I called "Persuasion Quickies," which was also a $49.00 product. It was also 20 percent improvement product. But the first one was landing pages; this one was sales pages about pages and emails. The third product was a members program which I started at $7.00 per month and then I went up to $14.00 and $19.00; now it's a $29.00 product. It's a 40 percent improvement product because it has bits and pieces. It has hacks to quickly put together one thing. 

	It has email scripts, what I like to call pretty conversation. If you want to have a pretty conversation, if you want to hire someone, fire someone, approach someone for interviews, whatever. So it has all these scripts; it's a members' site. Now it's $29.00 but it used to be $7.00 and then $14.00 and then $19.00. That was March, 2015.

[00:47:02]	Then in June, 2015 I launched my 60 percent improvement product, which was called "Email Persuasion Sequence." It was $299.00 and I sold about 200 of those. Again, because of this progression I've always sold in hundreds. Because I've kind of taken them through that journey. Then in October of 2015, I launched something called "Mass Persuasion Method," which at that point - and that's really interesting. 

	You know when you create those portfolio of products, sometimes some of your products will cannibalize your other products. So when I launched Mass Persuasion Method, I had to kill the Quickies because there was the risk of them cannibalizing my higher end product. Again, that's Business 101 but I chose to kill them even though they made me 5,000 clean, passive income.

[00:48:01]	I had a funnel at the time. I don't have a funnel anymore. So October, 2015 I came up with Mass Persuasion Method. It had three levels: $499.00 $799.00 and $1,499.00. So see, I'm growing. I started with 47 and I'm progressing. Then in January, 2016 was the first time I offered one-on-one work with me. It was a $5,000.00 coaching package with one-on-one working with people. That was January, 2016. It was $5,000.00. I opened up with five spots; I ended up selling ten. But yeah. And [inaudible] I don't like human beings. That was kind of a little bit of - but it was fun. I try to like human beings. I like you.

Jaime:	I try to like human beings. That's hilarious. I like people. Let me talk to more people, please. Yeah, you're hilarious. That's awesome.

[00:49:00]

Bushra:	When you said you talked to five people yesterday, a part of me died a little bit. If I talked to five people in a day, I'd probably crawl in a cave and never come out.

Jaime:	That's hilarious because five is low for me. We are very different but I love that. Okay, what was the next one after that?

Bushra:	Next one, March 2016 I relaunched EPS, Email Persuasion Sequence 2.0. I launched it again, sold - last time I launched it, it was $297.00; this time I launched it it was $499.00. I sold 200 of those again. June, 2016, last year, was really my first high end program. It was called "Sold Out Launch" and that gave me about $700,000.00 in revenue; that one product. But if I had come out with that product two years ago, it would have flunked. 

[00:50:00] 	But now I've taken people through a journey, right?

Jaime:	Yeah, and of course they trust you because they're like we started with sales pages and email lists and that sort of stuff. So give us your secret sauce on the email stuff, too because that's the other thing. The only reason why you can push products like this is because - well, number one you're really good at sales but that's why you teach the stuff. But number two is your email list was getting bigger of the right people. So what one or two or three tips can you give people to grow? Is it JVs or is it - how can we get 3,000 people on our email list in three days?

Bushra:	First of all, no JVs. All of this probably I total, probably five affiliate members and very - literally like two or three sales, maximum five sales from them. One thing that I did, most people don't do and I think that really helped me with that - again, list of buyers was that the first 100 people who bought from me, I offered them to become my affiliates.

[00:51:02]	And I'll share with you - this is something really interesting. I'll share with you why I did that. Because when we try to promote something, we look for people who are affiliate promoters; who promote affiliate offers. But the problem is those people promote just anyone. But even if someone does not have a following, does not have an email list, if she truly believes in your product and she got great results from your product, she is going to go and talk about your product. why not give her the incentive? 

	So that's what I did for about three, four months where I offered the people who bought from me the offer to become affiliates. I don't do that anymore because the tech is a nightmare and I don't know how to handle that shit. So I think one of the fastest - one of the things that really grew my business so fast, the list in the beginning for the first six months of my business, I didn't do any beta advertising at all.

[00:52:01]	So most of that was guest posting - a lot of guest posting. I guest posted for, I remember - I still was working in consulting and I wrote eight guest posts in one weekend. One of those guest posts actually got my first bank line as well. So that was really - guest posting was really, really great for me.

Jaime:	Quick question on guest posting, because I feel like people don't really talk about the stats behind it. On average, how many email signups did you get per - and I know it depends on how big the guest post is. But if you have an idea on how big the guest post is versus how many email signups you got, what were you looking at?

Bushra:	I will tell you about - okay. Most of my guest posts bombed. But the one that took off, that got me - so far it was published in probably the first month that I stated my business, so let's just say about two-and-a-half years ago.

[00:53:00]	In the last two-and-a-half years, it has at least gotten me, if I'm not wrong, at least 3,000 people. And not just that; it has also made me at least 10,000, I would say.

Jaime:	That happened to me, too. Because when I first started, I did a ton of guest posts. Most of them also bombed. One of them got me press on everything and right as soon as the article came out, it was like 500 email subscribers. I was like: this is amazing; guest post everywhere! And then a whole bunch bombed again, too. So now you do paid advertising. I know we have to start wrapping up, unfortunately, because I have another one right after this. So now you do paid advertising. In a nutshell, give me what that looks like.

Bushra:	What I like to do is I take a very different approach, and you talk about Digital Market. I think they'll probably just kill me for saying this but the way I do ads is I like to, again, take a more psychological approach to it. I run ads through Outfigure. But I don't run ads to grow my list.

[00:54:01]	What I do run ads for is to become a familiar face in the people's newsfeed; that's what I do. And I like to call those seduction ads. The idea behind those seduction ads is all I'm doing is I posted a parody video, no [inaudible], no call to action, nothing. It's just a parody video of me, my name is Lucy Diamond McDreamy and I'm pretending to be a nine figure entrepreneur, and I'm giving this really lame webinar on webinars. 

	And I'm running this and it has I think about 10,000 views in two or three days. And all it is doing is making me a familiar face in people's newsfeeds. So now, when I come out with an actual ad, when I'm gearing up for a launch and I come out with an opt-in ad, people are far more likely to sign up because they've seen me. So again, mere exposure effect; psychological fact. When we see something, when something is familiar we like it more.

[00:55:01]	Familiarity breeds likability. So I'm all about being familiar in newsfeed. That gives me conversions for - I've had Facebook ad conversions for 20, 30 cents a conversion because I use the strategy. If I just ran cold traffic to my opt-in ads, my ads would probably bomb, too. But seduction ads really helped me become a familiar face.

Jaime:	I love that you name it, too. And it's entertaining so that's amazing. It's funny; that's what one of my Facebook ad friends just told me the other day; to really level that side of things up. Because it was mostly we were going after the digital marketing strategy and this is what we do. And even Digital Marketer has been changing what they're saying as far as warming people up beforehand, especially with video. So I know we have to start wrapping up just because the other person already messaged me right now. I would talk to you all day long, and I can't but that's okay. So I'm going to ask the last question. What's one thing listeners can do this week to help move them forward towards their goal of a million?

[00:56:00]

Bushra:	Oh, I love this question. This is my favorite question. I will try to save you on time and not drag on and on about this. I am the least Google person that you will ever meet but I want to show you this. This is something I made for myself - and I am not voodoo at all. But I made myself this, and I [inaudible] 2016 and it says 1 million dollar. And I am not Google but I saw Jim Cary do it or Will Smith or one of those people and that really helped. When I put it up in here, there is a person of a hot girl next to it. And my husband came in and he was like, "You know what? This is totally happening. That, not really sure." And he's right. Bloody husband.

Jaime:	My mind believes I can make money instead of being lean. Yeah, I get it.

[00:57:00]

Bushra:	Me not Google, even though I'm absolutely not Google. That really helped me and I think also - we're all about goal setting but when I set my goals, I don't set one goals. I always set three goals. So there is one which is an extreme, bloody, out of this world kind of goal and then there is a regular goal, and then there is a bare minimum goal. And I like to plan my launches or plan my promotions based on these three levels. I think that really helps. 

	Because I think a lot of people are - even though a million dollars are important and they are great and they change everything, and life is great with money; the reality is money in and of itself is nothing, right? So when I look at this number - I don't know whether you know this but 10 percent of my revenue goes to charity. So when I look at this number, I think to myself: oh, my God, I just raised $100,000. So right now I have $112,000 that I can invest wherever I want. And having something bigger than just the money, just the number itself really helps.

[00:58:02]	Because I keep getting - I was like okay, I can build 25 schools. Can you imagine the impact of that? It's life changing. So I think that really helps. That really helps, thinking of something that's bigger than just a number.

Jaime:	See, you're not a bitch. I love that. And I actually have not done that yet with the check thing so I'm writing it on my little post-it note. It's silly that I haven't but nobody's ever said that before so thank you very much for the reminder. Everybody make sure they do that, too. So where can we find more about you and get all your secret sauce stuff? I want to different link to that parody video, too so make sure you send me that link because I think that's hilarious an d awesome. I want to see it. But where can we find and follow and all that fun stuff for you?

Bushra:	Thank you so much, first of all, Jaime for having me; it was an absolute blast. I'm so, so grateful we got to chat. My website is the PersuasionRevolution.com. I also have the Mass Persuasion Guide, the one I talked about.

[00:59:00]	And I would love to just send it to you without any opt-in. I would love for your people to have access to it. I honestly do not believe in creating a list. I think that's pretty clear. So I'll send a link to you as a gift. I would appreciate if your people could have access to it. and that's it. it was such a pleasure to talk to you.

Jaime:	You do a podcast, too. What's your podcast so everybody can check it out?

Bushra:	It's called the Persuasion Show and yeah, it's kind of dramatic but yeah.

Jaime:	It sounds awesome. I don't listen to any podcasts by the way but maybe I'll start actually listening to yours. That sounds fantastic. And thank you so much for coming on. Like I said, I could talk forever; you're amazing. I hope you have an awesome day.

Bushra:	Thank you so much, you too. I will send you an email. I know you're in a rush so I won't stop you. I'll send you an email. Thank you. Bye.

Jaime:	Bye.

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Categories: All, Featured Millionaire Interview, Millionaire Interviews, Sales

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