The power of strategic partnerships during the pandemic with John Jantsch

John Jantsch is a marketing consultant, speaker and author of Duct Tape Marketing, Duct Tape Selling, The Commitment Engine and The Referral Engine and the founder of the Duct Tape Marketing Consultant Network. His latest book, The Self-Reliant Entrepreneur, is organized like a daily devotional with 366 entries, one for each day of the year, including Leap Year – and contains daily meditations that will feed your soul and grow your business.

John is known as the world’s most practical small business marketing speaker and expert. He is a veteran marketing speaker and workshop leader with over 200 successful events under his belt. Event organizers and attendees frequently comment on the nature of the practical, actionable “takeaway” value of his presentations.

“Companies that have a meaningful place in the hearts of their customers are always going to thrive in tough times.” – John Jantsch

Episode Highlights:

Why you should read the book, The Self-Reliant Entrepreneur
Tips in building strategic partnerships for your business
Tips to get your Zoom conversations better
How to setup a virtual event that will be interesting to your audience
Marketing tips to get new clients during the pandemic
How to setup client evaluation (And how to get potential clients in a call)

Transcript: Download

Video Transcription provided by GMR Transcription Services.

Jaime: Welcome to Eventual Millionaire. I’m Jaime Masters, and I love to have John Jantsch back on the show. You might be one of the people that I’ve had the most, but any time you ask, I’ll say yes. So, ask again and then you definitely will be. He, of course, is part of Duct Tape Marketing, and has written my favorite book called Self-Reliant Entrepreneur that’s so dinged up, and there’s nothing in it – that you can’t even see it on the video. Thanks so much for coming on the show today.

John: Oh, my pleasure. I think this might be my third time, is that possible?

Jaime: I think you’re running in the races for just a handful of people. So, just so you know, we’re up there. But ask again, and then you’ll be –

John: All right. Well, I’m glad you’re book is worn and tattered, even though you told me your dog helped a little bit, but I’m guessing that means you’ve used it as a practice, as it was intended.

Jaime: It is always on my meditation cushion, hence the reason why she grabs it so often. It’s one of the ones in view all the time. Yes. I’ve absolutely loved it. Why don’t you tell – I know people from last time probably know what it is, but why don’t you tell people what it is, and why I would be reading it every single day?

John: Sure. So, it is – the title you said, the Self-Reliant Entrepreneur, the subtitle probably hints a little more at what it is, 366 Daily Meditations to Feed Your Soul and Grow Your Business. So, every day you get a meditation, and that meditation consists of three things. Some literature that I curated from mid-19th century that I think is still some of the best entrepreneurial writing ever done, stood the test of time. And then, I contextualize it with 100, 150 words of my experience as an entrepreneur, and then I leave you every day with, what I hope is, a thought provoking question.

Jaime: Yes. And especially when I interviewed you last time, pre-pandemic, and then reading the book when I’m like, I need information, right? Especially from somebody that’s been in business for so long, but also, like you said, timeless wisdom that has gone through the ages. Because that’s, I feel like, the foundation that we can go back to right now, or have to, unfortunately.

John: Yeah. I wrote the actual pages in, what, mid/early 2019, I guess, or 2018. I don’t know when I did. 2018, yeah. And I think there was an uneasiness in the United States, at least, maybe around the world, of some sort of divide that was producing a lot of tension, I think. And I’ve always felt that entrepreneurs are the source of good in the world. And so, I certainly wrote it with that in mind, but so many things, the pandemic, just shoved it in our face and said, deal with it. And it’s funny, obviously I didn’t have any premonition of that, but I got so many people sending me notes saying it’s so weird, what I wrote today. It’s exactly what I’m feeling now.

But I think that is a little bit of a testament to the fact that being an entrepreneur’s hard. Being an entrepreneur’s – I’m not gonna compare it to a pandemic, but it certainly can be chaotic every day. So, I think this just upped the level, is all.

Jaime: Right? Because that’s the other thing, being a business owner anyway is ups and downs, ups and downs. Being a business owner during a pandemic, when your ground is shifting and you’re trying – everybody’s like, pivot, pivot, other people are like, stay foundational. There’s so many opinions, and nobody knows what to do, and the risk is just so much higher because if you get a wrong move, it could be the end of your business, which is crazy right now.

John: Yeah. I must admit, because I had my own podcast and so a lot of people pitch me ideas and about 30 days in, I got kinda sick of all of the pitches on how to market during a pandemic. Because they basically said stop spamming everybody, and get closer to your customers. I’m like, you know, that’s always been a good idea.

Jaime: That’s why I love your advice, because it is funny. I was just telling you right before we hopped on, I recommend your books anyway. Referral Engine and the classic, non-Facebook add marketing, because don’t get me wrong, adds are great and volatile, especially this year, especially election year. So, getting back to the grass roots, what I always called pound the pavement marketing, it’s harder for people though, too. They’re like, oh, then I have to talk to people, and I have to do these things, and it’s slow, or it feels slow a lot of times. Tell me a little bit of what’s been working for people during the pandemic.

John: Well, one of the things – first observation I had is that by no fault of their own, some industries are just in the wrong place in the tsunami of this. But I also notice a lot of businesses that certainly have adjusted, but also are thriving in some ways, too. And I think that the biggest thing is that whether it was intentional or just who they are, the businesses that seem to have really come through this maybe less tattered are businesses that were meaningful to their customers in some way. They weren’t transactions, they – their customers didn’t want to see them go out of business. And in some cases, we all saw people buying gift cards and doing things with some of their favorite restaurants and that kind of thing. But I even saw it in service businesses.

An example I love to use is a remodeling contractor that they basically shut down and said hey, we’re following the stay at home order, I’m telling all our employees we’re gonna keep them employed but we’re not gonna work. They sent out this big email to everybody that is – their customers and employees, they just got hundreds of emails back saying, we’re here for you, whenever it works, we’re gonna keep the project. It was just like, wow. And it was testament to who they are and how they’ve treated their customers forever. And I think that that was really a great lesson for me, is that a lot of times in good times, just being in the right place at the right time is how you get business.

But I think in really tough times, it shows that the companies that are meaningful, have a meaningful place in the hearts of their customers are always going to thrive.

Jaime: Yeah. Especially in the age of social media, where you’re following a bazillion “meaningful”, right? If you took away Instagram, would you remember any of their names? Because if you do, maybe that’s something, but half the time I’m like, who is that? They look familiar. There’s just so – we’re inundated with so many different things, the ones that actually are more attached, or we have a bigger connection thread for them, makes it way more easy for us to be able to actually pay attention and be like, ah, if they went out of business, that would suck.

Community right now, I feel like, is so much better, and networking a little bit more. Because people don’t have as much time and they really are trying to pay more attention to the 80/20 rule of not pray and spray marketing.

John: Yeah. I know that I personally am doing less, but definitely doing things – definitely focused on what’s meaningful. It does get a lot easier to set your priorities, I think, when you’re forced to. But I do think it’s always been the right thing to do, but I think it’s certainly something that, I think, a lot of people are waking up to and saying hey, we’re not getting to do some of the things we used to do, so maybe let’s not take some of those things for granted.

Jaime: Well, what about – especially for service based companies, like I know you work a lot with. When they have a longer sales cycle – pandemic hit in March, and they’re like, ahh, right? So, I have got clients that are corporate, and they work with corporate and corporate’s like, I don’t know what I’m doing right now, or longer sales cycle, what do you suggest for those people to level up their marketing as best they can, without doing a ridiculous amount more work, ideally?

John: The thing that I always fall back on, and you mentioned my book The Referral Engine, is that really shore up your strategic relationships, not just your customers. Your customers are who they are, hopefully they like you, but it was tough for people to go out and just get new customers. Especially people that had to have, as you said, a sales cycle or even a sales presentation to get the ball rolling, had to really make some adjustments. And so, I’m really advising that if you haven’t done this, you should be developing some strategic relationships with people that have your same customer, that you can provide value to so that they can see some real reason for introducing you to their customers.

I don’t wanna say that’s where the easy business is, but that could be the best use of your time, is to build some deeper relationships with somebody that can introduce you to 500 people.

Jaime: So, give us some tips on that, too, because I know a lot of my clients right now are like, okay, I know that’s a good idea, and I make my list, and then I don’t know what to do because I’m either a spammy person, cold emailing them, and on LinkedIn. It’s just a crazy mess of trying to get to meet people.

John: Yeah. So, I think the biggest thing you have to start with is reciprocity. Because what a lot of people do is, they go, who would I like to share what I do with their whole network? And if I don’t know you that well, we haven’t done anything together, that’s a pretty tall order. But who could you – the way I like to tell people is, if you’re gonna make that list, don’t put anybody on there unless you would actually refer them to your best customers, first off. I know that sometimes limits the list, but that’s where you ought to start. Because what I try to teach people to do, is build their own formal network and platform. And so, a really simple thing, if you make that list and people meet the bar of yes, I would refer them to my best customers, then reach out to them and ask them, what’s the best way that I can introduce – I believe that I have some customers that could use what you do. What would be the best way for me to introduce you to them? And that, I guarantee you, is gonna start the conversation on a different posture. But again, that’s why you shouldn’t put them on that list unless you mean that. But then you can start exploring, how could we do a webinar together? How could I interview you for my podcast? How could I write a guest blog post for you?

So, you start with that, from that point of view or that frame of mind, I think you could start exploring ways that you could do some things together. And as everybody’s – right now, at least, we’re at the end of 2020, still in virtual land, a lot of strategic partners are doing half day workshops together. So, three partners get together, they all have something of value to say, they all can put some butts – we used to say butts in seats, I guess that’s not really what we do now, but at any rate –

Jaime: Back in the day, before – pre-pandemic sayings.

John: So effectively, they are providing value – everyone wins. They’re providing value to the participants, they’re providing value to each other, and who knows? Maybe they’re gonna get exposure to some people that can hire them, or buy their courses, or products, or services.

Jaime: Yeah. What about people that have strategic partners that they’ve had, but they fizzle out, or maybe they’ve done a lot of work with them and they are sending them a bunch of fleets? Because that always happens.

John: Yeah. That’s a tough one, because I believe the universe has a very good score keeping system, and so I think that those things work out. As long as that person that’s sending you leads is providing – or, however you said that, the other way around. As long as you’re providing value to the people they send you – it’s not to say you wouldn’t start trying to develop another relationship, but I don’t get too hung up on one for one, for sure. Again, like I said, the way the universe works is one person that they send you is gonna end up sending you 50 other people at some point. And so, there wasn’t any sense in keeping score.

Jaime: Do you do anything – because now, especially – we’re recording this during Christmas time, I know it’s coming out a little bit later. A lot of people are like, okay, now popcorn tins go out to all my strategic partners, or whatever the – I just got nuts in the mail. I’m like, who sends nuts? Roasted nuts of a random – it was just, I’ve gotten it every year from some random person I don’t even know. It's just a random one, it has nothing to do with anybody that I’ve ever met, right? Do you –

John: Well, you send them to me, I love them.

Jaime: Do you? Darn it. I’ll tell these guys, he’ll actually care. Go send them to him.

John: You know, I’ve never been the big popcorn tin person. And I’m really, I’m kinda bad on holidays in general.

Jaime: Gifts are not your love language then, are they?

John: Well, they just get – holidays just get so hyped, so it ruins them for me. But it’s really funny, because I grew up – I have seven brothers and two sisters, and my mom made a huge deal out of every holiday. She planned our birthdays like, in – my birthday’s in April and she’d start talking about it in January. So, I don’t know if that –

Jaime: Really? You swung the pendulum the other way.

John: – backfired on me, or what. But in terms of appreciation, one of the things that I am not as good at as I’d like to be, but I think just acknowledgement and just making time to talk to people is what I’ve certainly tried to do over my entire career. And it’s just – I used to, when I first started my business, I used to just take Friday afternoons and I would just randomly call people. You can’t call people anymore, because nobody has a phone –

Jaime: No one’s gonna answer.

John: – or very rarely, anyway. I’ve got about 10 close contacts in my cellphone, those are the only people I could probably get a hold of. But just reaching out to people, and setting time, making time. I will say that I’ve found people more open to that right now. And I think it’s because we’re not going to conferences and getting to do any of the – it was always the joke in the speaker circuit and stuff, it's like oh, we get to see each other three times a year at these events. And that’s gone out the window, this year, anyway. And so, I definitely find myself just getting on the phone with – or Zoom, or whatever, with those folks.

Jaime: Yeah, it’s funny, because it’s like, there’s a loneliness – and this is why I like all your books, right, but one is very more universal, esoteric, and the other ones are like, and this is what you do, strategies and tactics. And so, it’s cool to be able to have both sides of that coin, and especially right now when people aren’t feeling connection. Zoom screens are okay, but it’s the connection and the deepening of the connection that we need more of, which is hard to get when you’re not in person, or harder to get. So, do you have any tips for our sad Zoom conversations, trying to get better?

John: Sure, I touch the screen.

Jaime: Yeah, exactly. Hugs, that’s how we do it, virtual hugs.

John: You know, I will say that – I don’t know if this is gonna be a tip or not, but I will say that I have changed my perspective about Zoom calls. It used to be like another meeting, and you’d get on there, and don’t tell anybody, but occasionally I might multitask or something. And I really have made a conscious decision and choice to be fully present, and maybe even prepare my mental state before I get on a call now. Especially a one-on-one call, and really kinda like, what do I wanna bring to this call? What do I want it to have? And I don’t mean what objective do I want out of this, but really more from a connection standpoint, how can I share my values through this call? And I don’t – because of the lack of the in person thing, I think it’s really important to do that.

Jaime: Yeah. It’s funny, we used to do a lot of in person retreats, which I loved, then we started serving people, probably midway through the pandemic stuff, and I’m like, does anyone want a virtual retreat? Because they were expensive, and that kind of – everyone’s like, I do not wanna sit in a hotel room with a glass of wine by myself looking at people on a screen. I get it. I totally get it. So, trying to build up that connection when we’re, again, sitting in front of – potentially alone, without anybody here, and looking at a screen is a hard thing. Have you found ways to connect with your customers, specifically, without having to just be a million Zoom calls all the time?

John: Well, I’m trying to think if there is. My short answer is no. Because I’m really good at social distancing, actually.

Jaime: One of those introverts, yeah.

John: Exactly. So that part –

Jaime: He’s like, I’m in a cabin anyway, nobody can get a hold of me anyway. So, none of this is different.

John: But so, it is hard. I will say that – and I’m not saying this is so surprising, but I do a lot of events as well, particularly with my consultant network, and I’ve been surprised at how engaging they can be, the virtual events. And there’s definitely pros to it. You don’t have a day on either side of it, you don’t have the expense. Obviously there’re cons, but I’ve had a tremendous amount of folks in my network willing to show up and do an hour long presentation that would not have come to Salt Lake City or wherever we were doing it. So, I think we’re gonna stick with some.

Even when we get back out there and people can do in person things, I think we’re gonna – I’m personally gonna continue to do some virtual events because I think people have realized that it’s not torture to do them.

Jaime: It’s funny, the reason why I surveyed everyone is because I did one called the Hoffman Institute, and it’s a weekend, and it was really great. You did meditations, and I was in a boot anyway, so it was good for – I wasn’t gonna go to a conference, right? And to take that much time away from my kids and stuff, it’s difficult. So I thought it was great. But there are – it feels like there needs to be methodology so that way – sitting in a chair forever. So, do your consultants have – do you guys do anything that is interesting or have you been to any that are interesting on that realm?

John: Well, I would say that we – I have seen some people that really produce them. They go into a studio, and they have multiple cameras, and try to give the stage presence look. And of course, the whole virtual meeting space has just exploded. There’s all kinds of new platforms that make networking a little better, and make sponsor booths, and all that kind of stuff. But I would say that just using Zoom and breaking up the cadence so that you’re not just having three, four hours of speaker after speaker after speaker. We use a lot of breakout rooms, and then have people come back and present.

So, you get a lot of people – my events are not 2000 person events, either. I think the biggest thing I’ve done is about 70 people at one time on Zoom. And with that group, breaking into breakout groups, and having a lot of different formats of what’s gonna be presented is still pretty rich.

Jaime: It’s funny, because I’m asking you all these marketing tactics on virtual stuff, and I have no idea if you actually know how to do any of this or not, but I find it very fascinating, because marketing has shifted. So, it’s weird that it’s going back to the old school ways. You actually have to connect with people, and actually care instead of the – and fortunately, social has come into this spray and pray of like, as long as you’re everywhere, that’s all that matters. And I think, one of my friends was saying the other day, they’re like, all those coaches that just had all the facades are gonna be like, oh no, I have no money left, awesome, and not have the business acumen underneath it all.

Because there’s a lot that goes into it, just like your book really talks about. There’s just so many facets to being an entrepreneur that are way more than just go do this tactic on Instagram, and that’s all you need to be successful, go team.

John: Yeah, and I don’t follow it that closely, but there was a period, I think – we were getting in a period of early 2020 where all people were doing was saying all you have to do is run Facebook adds and buy my course, and I’ll make you a digital agency or something. I don’t know. And I think that, as you mentioned, the facade fell off of that stuff pretty quickly, when people actually had to have real relationships and understand business beyond being able to just get some clicks. And so, I do think that – who knows how long that’ll last, but I do think that there’s certainly a – and it’s not like we’re gonna go away from the digital stuff.

I think people are just realizing where its place is. It’s a very necessary piece today. People want to interact that way. So, it’s not a matter of saying oh, no, everybody just wants to go all analog and meet up, because as we were mentioning, there are definite advantages to somebody being able to schedule an appointment, get the stuff on their time, do what they wanna do, but then obviously realized you’ve got the goods. So, I think people have just – there’s definitely this place for using digital, and using a lot of the tools and the automations that we have to create a better experience, not to create an automated experience.

Jaime: Yeah. Well, and even just thinking about the speed. That’s the thing that everyone likes. They’re like, oh, Facebook adds, it’s just fast. In a month, then you’ll be huge. And I think that’s where we tend to look at our feet and be like, okay, three months and then I’ll be a winner, versus the long term game, which is a lot about what you preached, which I think is really important.

John: But it’s really not very sexy though, right? Show up for a bunch of years, put in the work, and hey, maybe you’ll have something to show for it.

Jaime: Right? Everyone’s like, not signing up for that.

John: Terrible headline. Terrible headline.

Jaime: Well, it’s interesting though, working one on one with people and being okay, I know that this is the information that you hear, and that it could be one Facebook add away, one photo away, all those things, right? Then them actually slogging and going but, I’m so confused. Because it really is an incongruent, where what – a lot of marketing. Unfortunately, marketing tells us what we wanna hear, a lot, and isn’t always completely accurate, let’s just say that. So, how do your digital agency consultancies navigate through that? What else is working right now, besides strategic partnerships, to get new clients?

John: Well, I almost hesitate to use this word because it’s been so abused, but I’m a big proponent of building very smart funnels. And by that, I mean not something that’s – I don’t talk about trip wires, and all the stuff that people have bastardized the idea of a funnel, but actually having a methodology to demonstrate that you have something of value and then being able to invite somebody in so that you have the opportunity to, over time, build trust with them. And not just build trust with them, but teach them how to be an ideal client or not, as part of that process, is foundational.

I think every business needs that, and we’ve been bashing on some of the internet marketer types of late, but unfortunately the funnel is a category that, it works. It can work for good or it can work for evil. And so, unfortunately, that’s the part that I struggle with a lot of times is you’ve got all these people out there. A consultant needs six or eight more clients to have a really good life, and yet they’re building these 747 step funnels and spending thousand of dollars on Facebook, and I’m like, why don’t you just find 10 people to talk to? But do it in a way that builds trust. That’s the hard part when I have the conversation about funnels. Because we use funnels for everything. After I speak, if somebody sends me a referral, we have a funnel for that, if I meet somebody at a networking event. But they’re not ways to automate conversations. They’re ways to facilitate us building a relationship that will hopefully give them value, no matter what, but will maybe turn into a long term client relationship.

Jaime: Okay. Thanks for breaking this down. I wanna break it down even further, because I don’t think funnels are the F-word either. I think they’re really, really great when you can’t be in front of somebody constantly, like 12 times, right? There’s a lot of touch points that need to happen that you cannot do as a solo person. And yet, like you were saying, they can get – I’ve gone and seen people spend – I mean, I’ve had funnels. I was like, that was way over complicated. I spent more time fixing the broken parts of it than actually seeing good results. And so, can you outline a couple of the funnels that you have? How many emails are we talking about here? What do they actually say?

John: So, what I preach is a core content funnel. It will probably have eight to 10 to 12 emails as part of it. And a lot of times, it depends on specifically if somebody’s gonna use that, but if they’ve got nothing else, it’s that. And so, part of it’s like welcoming. And it’s here’s the problem, we think, that you might be experiencing. Here’s some information about that problem. Oh by the way, here’s what we do. Oh by the way, here’s something that might be of interest to you. For us, in marketing consulting, people need marketing strategy, but what they come to us for is a website, [inaudible] [00:28:00] content.

And so, we know that. And so, we’ll teach them not only that those are important, but how they’re connected. And at some point we’ll earn the right to start saying, you wanna jump on a call and talk about this? You wanna do this evaluation for your website? So we’ll start, as somebody continues to move down that funnel, they are paying attention to what you’re sending them and at some point, they’re gonna wanna say okay, let me – I know who you are now. I like and trust what you’re saying. Let me dip my toe in the water and have an experience with you. That’s the idea behind this funnel. Not everybody is going to end up at that place, but you’re just trying to guide the ones that hopefully will.

Jaime: I like how you said evaluation, too, or something that can really connect you to. I just did an introduction for two of my clients, because one of my clients will do an eval of the other client’s PPC, and know if he’s spending a ton of money or not, you know what I mean? And whether he uses him or not, I go, it’s a value add for him, and it’s an easy intro. So, is that – how do you set up your evals, and how do you actually get them on a call?

John: So, I actually coined the term – as you may recall from the Referral Engine and previous, The Marketing Hourglass is our journey, and it has seven stages. Know, like, trust, try, buy, repeat, and refer. And so, we’re trying to guide everybody on that complete journey, not just to get them to buy, but just to make them happy, and make them wanna buy again, and make them want to refer us. So, it is a complete journey. The hourglass shape borrows from the funnel but then turns the funnel over, because to me, that’s where it expands out. So, for us, what you just described, the evaluation, that is a try.

That is a way for – I mean, everybody’s got software trials, they’ve got low cost products, but a try is just somebody getting the chance to see what it might be like to work with you. And so, on top of them, say, getting value from you evaluating their website and telling them here are things that could be better and stronger, they also get to experience what it's like to work with you. And I’m a big proponent of those being paid, too. I mean, they don’t always have to be free. They can be a low cost, because it does a couple things.

It keeps the tire kickers away, people have skin in the game, they’re gonna show up, they’re gonna take it seriously, they’re not just gonna blow it off. Because if it’s free, it might not be worth much, right? So, I actually feel like that’s paid lead conversion. It’s give me $700.00 and I will give you more than that back, but you’re also going to really have a great experience of what it’s like to work with me.

Jaime: How do your people figure out what works for them best, for that paid try? Or that try, in general, whether it’s paid or not?

John: How do people? I think that, obviously, it depends on different markets that you’re in, but I think you’ve gotta be able to – we sell something called a total online presence audit, and most of our consultants sell it anywhere from $800.00 to $1000.00. What we deliver is worth three times that, and I think that that’s one of the deciding factors. But I think the other thing, too, is that for us, one of our biggest jobs as marketing consultants is to convince people, or to help people understand that marketing is an investment and not a cost. And so, what it does for us is it attracts people who are investing in a baseline, at the very least. And without that, we’re not attracting ideal clients.

Jaime: Isn’t it funny that still, after all this time, it’s still like, no, marketing’s an investment, no, marketing’s an investment. I mean, people have been burned so much, too, it’s not even just the fact that they’re putting money in it, but it’s the burnt, like, oh, I’ve tried so many things and it didn’t work, especially now. So when it comes to your funnel, tell me a little bit more about open rates. Or how do you know if they’re working? Because I feel like people will set them up and then go, I have no idea if it’s actually doing what I want it to do.

John: Yeah, I mean obviously – I shouldn’t say obviously, but certainly a key ingredient is that you are measuring the objectives. But I think, and I stated this already, but I didn’t state it this clearly. The first thing is to have an objective. So many people set these up, and it’s like well yeah, we’re getting lots of clicks, we’re getting lots of visits. But if the goal – like, our consultants, especially when they’re starting up, in the first 90 days I want them to get an A client. Then in the first three, four months after that I want them to have three clients. And so, you back up from there, what’s that gonna take?

In a lot of people’s businesses, it’s gonna take having six or eight meetings. Okay, if six or eight meetings, then how many people do I have to actually get interested in a try? And so, we back up that way. That’s one of the things that I’ve done for years is, even with our hourglasses, we build them in reverse. What do we want people thinking, doing, saying, 90 days after they’re a customer? As opposed to how do we get them to click? And by reverse engineering the hourglass, you get to the point where you can, with some amount of authority, say we need 237 people on our mailing list. So then that becomes not only how you build everything, but how you measure it.

Jaime: Thank you. I mean, I think that ‘s why the term funnel has been bastardized quite a bit, because it’s less about – it is about the result, but it’s about the quick result, too, and liquidating offers, and all those things. And in reality, some people just take longer than others, and some people are in a different part of your cycle, and that’s okay, too. And there’s just a lot of different pieces to it and either way, they’re still a person at the end of all of this, not a number on a screen which is what, unfortunately, we get to see all the time, is just data, right? Numbers on screens.

John: And there are definitely people that have been very successful, and doing the one time offers, and all of that kind of stuff. But it’s just never been something that feels right to me. So I don’t do it. But I will also say it pains me when people join my network and they say yeah, I’ve been following you for eight years. It was like –

Jaime: Darn it, I didn’t do my job right.

John: – I’ve got to speed up the sale cycle.

Jaime: Definitely. It’s only because you’ve been in business so long that you would say that, though, right?

John: But I will say this, is that I love the people that join our network. And it’s because of that approach, I think, that has resonated with them, that we’re attracting the right people. And I think that that’s the part that people underestimate sometimes, is some of these gimmicks that people do work, and then you get people that you’re really not that interested in working with.

Jaime: Okay. And especially on the service based business, the ones where there’s actual interaction with the customers and clients. It’s not about being a used car salesman and getting the deal and being like, ah ha, got it, now I never have to see you again. It’s like, I have to work with crappy clients all the time, this sucks, I hate my business. And that’s not where you wanna be either. But again, sometimes the slow and steady – or the approach that’s a little bit more foundational, a little more un-sexy, takes a little bit longer also. And so sometimes we can be like oh, it must not be working because it’s taking too long.

It’s like well, eight meetings, getting eight meetings, you have to figure out how the heck to get eight meetings. This is not easy. It’s not like a this, which is what we’re hoping for in the day and age of fast venture.

John: And there’s plenty of people that will promise that. So, that’s the other challenge.

Jaime: Yeah, unfortunately, yeah. I always hate being the bearer of bad news. Not that it’s bad news, but it’s like yeah, of course, it’s slow. This is what this is. But nobody wants to say it, because it’s not as easy to market when you say slow and steady wins the race. But that’s why we need books like Self-Reliant Entrepreneur to get us through the hump of oh, crap. I just had to fire my person, and now I have to rehire again. There’s a lot of things. I know we’re problem solvers in business, and that’s a wonderful gift, but there’s a lot of problems to solve, also, especially this year.

John: Yeah. The month of August in that book is loosely based on resilience, and I think resilience has been tested this year.

Jaime: I’m quite positive I loved August, because I was probably like, exactly what I needed during that time, right? It does feel like resilience is something that has grown in me, realizing what it really is. Because at the beginning, I felt like I was very patient and very – that kind of stuff. But resilience is another flavor that goes deep.

John: Yeah, and sometimes people misinterpret resilience as oh no, you just get up again and go out there and bang your head against the wall until you get through. But it’s really more about reframing, as opposed to just keep doing. And so, I think what you’re suggesting is that you step back after the initial shock and now you’re going okay, what am I supposed to learn from this? What am I supposed to take from this? And I think if you continue to stay mindful and pay attention to that, the lessons are amazing.

Jaime: And sometimes I just need a little bit more space away from it in order to look back with that other – and that’s why I appreciate the book. The perspective of going oh, when I’m in it it’s really hard to tell what the lesson is or whatever. But when I step back away from it and have a new perspective, especially from reading literature from a long time ago, going they had the same problems I did. I am not a unique snowflake at all.

John: Isn’t that funny? Sometimes I would read some of the Thoreau and I would think he’s writing about Facebook.

Jaime: He would experience, right? Good. Whew. No matter what happens, we still are on a rocky rollercoaster, no mater what. Until robots take over the world. All right, I know we have to start wrapping up in a second, but you know I love having you on. What’s one tip, though, that you feel like you can give people right now, just because this year’s been tough for people. Do you have one piece of advice?

John: One of the things – I mentioned this idea of getting closer to your customers, where people are like yeah, okay, great, what does that mean? I call them more, or what? But one of the things that I’ve really been working on is narrowing our focus on who we serve, which is always great advice. But the way to get closer to them, I think, is to think in terms more – think in deeper terms about the problem that you solve for them, but then the other problems that they have. So a lot of times, I’ve been working on this thing I call the customer success track. And so, people come to us in a certain stage almost all the time.

And our job is not necessarily – I mean, our job seems like it’s to build them a website and get them content, and get them stuff so they can start getting more leads. But ultimately, our job really is to actually help them mature as a business, and help their marketing mature. And so, if we map out what that journey looks like, if we map out where they are today and where we think they wanna go to actually create a transformation for our clients, as opposed to delivering a result, even. I think that you – first off, I think you have the right point of view about how to really serve your client.

But I think immediately, almost, when you start thinking that way, new opportunities start presenting themselves of ways you could do more for the people that already trust you.

Jaime: Yes. And you’re setting their expectations In a way that sounds like they can actually have buy in, where they’ll commit even longer to the full journey instead of being like yeah, I want it right this second, which is what you were pretty much talking about before, also. Which I appreciate.

John: Absolutely.

Jaime: All right. So, I have to ask the last question. What is one action – I know you’ve answered it quite a few times, but I don’t remember those, you probably don’t either. So, what is one action listeners can take this week to help move them forward towards their goal of a million?

John: I would say that I would tell – this is a generic answer because I have no idea who I’m talking to, specifically. But I would say, really wrap your head around the power of that strategic partner. And so, your first step is to identify five of six potential strategic partners. Not because of what they can do for you, but because of what they might be able to do for your existing clients and customers. And then start thinking about how could we formalize a relationship so that we are helping each other? And I’ll tell you, if you’ve figured out how to get referrals yourself, then offer to teach them how to get referrals. If you wanna actually get on their radar, teach them how to get referrals, and I guarantee you will get a shower of referrals in return.

Jaime: That’s what everyone wants right now. A shower of referrals. Thank you so much for coming on the show.

John: Well, can I tell you just one more thing? One of the things you have to realize is, there’s a whole lot of businesses that are looking for new providers right now. More, probably, than ever. Maybe because they lost this person, this person pivoted, is not doing that anymore, they’ve taken this moment in time to say I need to reevaluate everything. So, referrals are out there for the taking right now. People need you right now.

Jaime: Yes, they need good, reliable businesses that they can work with, please, without all the Yelp reviews specifically. But yes, they need people they trust. Thank you so much. So, tell everybody where to get The Self-Reliant Entrepreneur, No. 1. I know it’s on Amazon, too, but everybody go get this book, and then we’ll talk about where we can find more about your podcast and everything, too.

John: So, it comes in the eBook version, the print version like you have, and there’s also, if you wanna hear me reading it every day to you, there’s the audio version as well. You can find it wherever you buy books. And then if you wanna find out anything closely related to what I’ve been doing the last couple decades, it’s just DuctTapeMarketing.com. and that’s D-U-C-T T-A-P-E Marketing .com.

Jaime: Awesome. Thank you so much, again, for coming on. I really appreciate it.

John: It is always great to get to chat with you, Jaime.

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