The 4 contrarian steps in getting rich with Nathan Latka

Book Author (#3 WSJ Instant National Bestseller, Capitalistbook.com) – Nathan Latka

I’m glad to have Nathan Latka back on the show. Nathan Latka is the founder of the software company Heyo, principal and manager of Software Private Equity Firm Latka Capital and host of The Top Entrepreneur’s Podcast. He has new new book that came out called How To Be A Capitalist Without Any Capital: The Four Rules You Must Break to Get Rich.

Episode Highlights:

• Why you should never have a single point of failure
• How to know when you have crossed the line of aggressive marketing
• Pivotal changing points in business
• Why goal setting can be extremely, dangerous and what is more valuable

Links:

NathanLatka.com
ChooseTheBook.com

Transcript: Download

Video Transcription provided by GMR Transcription Services.

Jamie:	Welcome to Eventual Millionaire. I'm Jamie Masters. And, we have Nathan Latka back on the show. Now, he is an author of an amazing new book, called How to Be a Capitalist Without Any Capital. He also has a top podcast called The Top. So, thank you so much for coming back on the show today.

Nathan:	Thank you, Jamie. I remember when we did that show. What was it? A year, or two, or three years ago, where I didn't realize it was in person, and I show up sweaty after the gym to your place. You're like, ?By the way, camera's on.? So, thanks for having me back.

Jamie:	That was great. I know. I was like, ?Ah.? You said, ?I should change.? And, then you changed into the same t-shirt. I was like, ?No one's gonna notice the sweat, just so you know.? But, I'm glad you changed. It was good for me. Thanks so much for coming back on the show. It was funny. We were just chatting right before this, and I was like, ?You ruffle a lot of people's feathers.? And, I told you before, ?A lot of my friends don't really like you very much.? So, we're going to talk about that a little bit. So, before we get into that, I want to talk about the book, and the ?

Nathan:	By the way, I have to say, I think that's a great thing. People have, at least, some opinion. I'd rather them not be in the middle. So, we'll get into that later.

Jamie:	Oh, yes. Oh, yes, we will. You are an opinionated man, and it shows, very well, especially in the book. So, what I want you to do, though, first, is go over the four very contrarian steps that you outline in the book, so everybody can, sort of, know your jam.

Nathan:	Yeah. Well, I would tell you, too, I didn't want these things to be contrarian. I wanted the book, actually, to just be basically 300 pages, where it's like two pages each of, like, a screen shot, or a script, or a bank statement, or a tax return. And, Portfolio Random House got a deal with, I would say, the No. 1 publisher in the world, quite frankly, which is remarkable. But, they said, ?Nathan, this needs a framework. We know you're not a writer, and you don't really do this stuff, but it needs a framework to be a book.? And, they said, ?We were reading a lot of these things you're doing, and here's what they feel like.?

	And, they gave ? We talked about these four rules. So, I will hit them really quickly for you, and let you dive wherever you want. So, the first thing is:  Don't focus on one thing. There are a lot of books. In fact, Jamie, I think you're friends with the Keller Williams folks ?

Jamie:	Yeah.

Nathan:	? and ?

Jamie:	The One Thing.

Nathan:	Yeah. The One Thing. And, Essentialism. These books sell really, really, really well because it's a really sexy topic, and it's easy to understand. But, it is extremely risky. And, I'll tell you why. You know, when I when I was studying architecture at Virginia Tech, I learned about something called, ?The single point of failure.? Engineers think about it when they're building a bridge. You never want a single point of failure because then the bridge could collapse. You need to have, like, nine things go wrong, at the same time, for the bridge to fall.

	And, so in the business of life, or in the bridge of life, a lot of people build their lives around a single point of failure:  one job; one boss; one thing. And, it's very risky. So, no one thing. No. 2) Copy your competitors fast, quickly, aggressively. Listen, my podcast, The Top Entrepreneurs ? I copied the hell out of John Lee Dumas, right? And, then I said, ?There are some things I don't like about how Tim Ferris did it, and there are things I like.? I copied what I liked. I didn't copy what I didn't like, right? I thought John, and some of his stuff, was a little soft with the questions, like, ?What's your biggest failure?? I'm like, ?I'm going to ask for their revenue data.?

Jamie:	Yes. Hence the reason why some of my friends don't like you. But, anyway, we'll talk about all that in a second. But, yes.

Nathan:	Yeah.

Jamie:	And, you are hardcore. I feel ?

Nathan:	Super hard.

Jamie:	? there are lines in that, too. Keep going with the rules, because I have too many things I can talk to you about.

Nathan:	Yeah. Yeah. No. 3) Goal-setting is also extremely, extremely dangerous. I'll tell you why:  It's like a loop, right? You go for the next goal; the watch; the Rolex; the house. Then, you save up, and you go for the next goal. And, it's a cycle. What's way more valuable is to kind of pat yourself on the back every day, if you made progress building the system. That will pump out the goals over and over. So, it's this idea of nurturing your golden goose ? the system ? versus focusing on the golden eggs it will produce.

	And, then, lastly, you never want to sell or compete in whatever is hot today, whether it's cannabis, or bitcoin, because usually hot markets become perfectly competitive very fast. Which means there?s not margin left for me and you to make money. The way to make money is to sell pic axes to the gold miner. Sell the accounting software to the cannabis entrepreneur, right? The underlying assets that have to make the hot thing work. And, so those are the four rules.

Jamie:	I love that. And, don't get me wrong. I agree with a lot of these things. What's interesting ? we were talking about this before ? the way you market. They boundary line of contrarian of what you're willing to play with, like shamelessly copy other people. So, I get why that's good, and I also get why that frickin' sucks for people. So, when we talk about the views that are sort of this borderline, why do you want people to be able to choose either, ?I don't like Nathan,? or, ?I do like Nathan,? or, ?I don't like this idea,? or, ?I do like this idea.? Why so [inaudible] [00:04:24] line?

Nathan:	Well, look, averages are a dangerous thing, right? The average American is worth approximately negative $4,000.00. That's the average net worth. So, guess what? If you want to build wealth, you have to do stuff, and you'd better hear the average broke person saying, ?No, you can't do it. You're not talented enough. You can't do it. You're copying people. That's wrong.? You have to do stuff that's not average to build wealth. So, one of the things is, I copy fast.

	For example, when I build the Get Latka database, on top of my podcast, to make more money, I basically messaged my engineers on Top Talent, and said, ?Listen. I want you to copy Matter Mark, and Owler.? These were other business tools. Now, me sending that one email saves me three days of time wiring framing in Balsamic trying to reinvent how to present this business data. People don't give themselves permission to copy, and I just think it's genius.

Jamie:	Okay. What you're trying to do is cut the way through faster, but not necessarily going and making exactly what they're making, and just trying to out-market them.

Nathan:	Well, no. I mean, I think ? by the way ? I think that's a lot of business. There are a lot of businesses doing exactly the same thing. You have to out-market. By the way, billionaires do this. Like, so, Facebook rips off every feature of Snapchat. You don't hear Facebook apologizing for launching Instagram Stories after Snapchat, do you? So, why does everybody hit me about ??

Jamie:	That's a good question.

Nathan:	It doesn't make any sense why people hit me about copying. Rich people do it because it saves time and energy. Everyone should do it.

Jamie:	Yeah. And, I totally understand the point behind it. I think it's the ? This is where I'm talking about the boundaries, which is the conversation I want to have.

Nathan:	Yeah.

Jamie:	Because the marketing can be sensational, or the whatever it is can be sensational as a packaging around it, I think that's where we're getting so much of the fray, right? Of the, ?Ah. I don't like that guy,? or whatever. Because, it seems to be ? it's so interesting. I've known you for so many years. And, marketing this book, even friends of mine are like, ?I don't like this.? I'm like, ?Whew. Wow.? Nobody has that much violent energy toward somebody, in this whole space, really.?

Nathan:	By the way, I'm a teddy bear in person. You hugged me in person.

Jamie:	I know.

Nathan:	People who have met me in person, I'm a huge teddy bear. But, people who only know me online, they go, ?That guy's an asshole.? And, you know what? I'm fine with that.

Jamie:	See. And, that's what I want to talk about. So, have you always been fine with that? Because, when I met you in person, it's completely different. We've had heart to heart conversations, and then I read your book, and I'm like, ?Huh. He kind of sounds like an asshole. I mean, I love him, but he kind of sounds like an asshole.?

Nathan:	Look. Howard Stern's an asshole, and got a half billion dollar with Sirius.

Jamie:	Oh, I'm not saying assholes don't get paid in any way, shape, or form.

Nathan:	He had the number <p data-wpview-marker="%5Baudio%20cuts%20out%5D">.</p> [00:07:02], and he just had Alex Jones on, who is crazy, right? Like, so here's the thing:  In today's day and age, you and I want to be educators; teachers. We could launch an info product. We could do all kinds of stuff, right? But, here's the thing:  We launch an info product ? and, you know this ? the refund rate is through the roof because no one logs on and actually starts taking the frickin' videos.

Jamie:	Yup.

Nathan:	Okay. I realized that many years ago. And, I said, ?You know what? In today's world, if you want to educate, you have to earn the right to educate by first entertaining.? And, so, I am entertaining.

Jamie:	You're are entertaining.

[Crosstalk]

Nathan:	? Nobody in the business space that pulls in ? when I do a podcast ? as many views, comments, controversy ? whatever. But, you know what? That's great because then people watch the content, and they learn. And, that's my ultimate goal.

Jamie:	So, okay. I love this. And, this is why I'm saying it's sensationalist. So, you think that as long as we make the reach wider, whether they hate you or love you, the reach is, at least, wider, and there's more opportunity for people to actually be paying attention.

Nathan:	That's right. And, I just really don't care if people don't like me, to be honest with you. I have a lot of confidence.

[Crosstalk]

Jamie:	Have you always been like that?

Nathan:	No. But, I just realized early on, like, there are ? You know, I just talk with people who are old, broke, and unhappy. And, the reason is usually because they never did anything in life because they're worried about what other people think. I just don't care. And, so, I just speak with what I feel is right.

Jamie:	How did you get to be there? Because, there are a lot of people online who are ? and, even me, too. I love being liked. It's an issue of mine. It has been since a little girl. I think even females have this more than men, and they typically do, right? And, so, how did you actually get over it?

Nathan:	Jamie, I wish I could three point together.

Jamie:	Yeah. Give me the steps.

Nathan:	I wish I could put three steps together.

Jamie:	You're an educator. You're supposed to be able to put three steps for everything.

Nathan:	But, listen ? can I just ? And, again, this is how the book works, too. I'm just going to give you an example.

Jamie:	Perfect.

Nathan:	So, for ? three years ago, Michael Stelzner, from Social Media Examiner, screened ? do your remember this?

Jamie:	Yes.

Nathan:	What are you doing with my email?

Jamie:	Yes.

Nathan:	Okay. Maybe, you explain what happened, and then I'll explain what I learned from it.

Jamie:	So, from my point of view, there was an email ? there was a thing on Facebook where he tagged you about saying ? and, I don't remember what it said. Something was ? he was not happy about, and tagged you in it ? or, didn't tag you. I'm sorry. Somebody else tagged you, or something like that, right?

Nathan:	It was an email blast I sent to my list, saying, ?Get the hell off my list,? basically. ?You're costing me money. I have to pay MailChimp five extra cents per month for everyone of you not opening my emails. Get away.? And, he was like, ?This is aggressive marketing. This isn't fair.? And, he blocked out my name. He didn't even give me credit for this genius email because he saw it as a weakness. And, I said, ?Michael, you have to tag me.? And, there was a massive debate. All these people. Blah, blah, blah.

Jamie:	You wanted him to tag you, though. Why did you want him to tag you, first of all?

Nathan:	Because, I thought it was genius marketing. I still think it's genius marketing. I wanted credit for it. He's like, ?Oh, I don't want to hurt Nathan's feelings. I should black it out.? Just, two different worlds.

Jamie:	Yes.

Nathan:	Here's my point, though.

Jamie:	Yeah.

Nathan:	Jamie, I got so many calls from, like, A-level speakers, right, that are in this world, that speak at Social Media World. They go, ?Nathan. Are you okay with the kind of social media being mad at you?? I'm like, ?By the way, he thinks I'm really smart, by the way.? Because, all this time, he's messaged me on the back-end, going, ?I actually think you're genius. I think it's smart. I think it's great.? And, he also, by the way, when he saw my Facebook, watched videos getting one million plus views, he invited me to come on his podcast. He didn't beg me, but he said, ?Nathan, I want you on the show.? So, we were just on the Social Media Marketing podcast two or three weeks ago.

	The thing is, a lot of times these things, where the audience just needs to be able to choose a side to get on. That's why sports are so popular ? the NFL. People want to be able to pick a side, root along, but really, that's all in their own head.

Jamie:	Okay. I watch UFC, right, and it's a lot like EOC, but I also think that WWE fake, right? We're pulling WWE crap into the UFC now. We have, what I think, are stupid fake fights. We're trying to get ? And, they're all just trying to get fans. But, it's this whole conglomerate of craziness. Don't get me wrong. I still watch it. Not nearly as much as I used to because it's so much more sensationalize than it used to be.

	Where is the line between just doing marketing to get eyeballs that doesn't feel true, or right, or ? because, even some of the stuff I read, I'm like, ?I can't believe ? I would never do that.? And, your line is totally different from everyone else'. So, how do you know where ? Have you crossed that line of, ?Ah. Maybe I went a little too far there,??

Nathan:	Well, I don't ever make stuff up. I just don't have any filter. Like, if I do something, and I believe it works, I'm going to say it. I'm not going to hold it back. So, I never fake something. Now, here's what I'll tell you:  I'll do things like you see in the book. I think it's Page 121. I leaked an LOI. I'm going to look it up, too. But, I leaked an LOI to Business Insider because I was trying to acquire ? Jamie, do you know the Success Magazine folks?

Jamie:	A bit.

Nathan:	Stewart Johnson, down in Dallas? Well, this magazine was getting ? and, they are getting destroyed. They were putting CD ROMS, still, in their frickin' magazine. Like, who the hell listens to CD ROMS? Nobody. So, anyway, I leaked this LOI because they wouldn't reply to my emails ? because, I wanted to buy the company. And, so, when I leaked this thing, finally, I instantly got a letter from their lawyers basically saying ?

Jamie:	Well, of course because you leaked it.

Nathan:	?Take this down.? Totally. By the way, it's on page ? Jamie, if you want to go to it, it's on Page 182.

Jamie:	Okay. Thank you.

Nathan:	It's a five ? basically, I said, ?Stewart, listen. I want to buy Success Magazine for $5 million bucks. So, this is something I wanted to do. He didn't reply. So, I leaked it. I got a reply, and now, by the way, I've launched Latka Magazine with all the talent that Stewart fired at Success Magazine. Because, they all saw me post the LOI, and they said, ?Nathan, if you buy Success, we'd love to work with you, and rename it.? And, I said, ?Funny enough, I'm launching my own magazine. You want to come be Editor in Chief?? And, so, this was ? I think this if frickin' genius.

	He didn't reply to my email. I get a response. I take his team. They're shut down now. My magazine is doing well. This is, in my opinion, genius stuff. And, people can love it or hate it, but it works.

Jamie:	Have you always been that creative? How do you tap into that creativity because your ideas ? and, I've known you for a really long time. Sometimes, you're like, ?Hey, Jamie, I got this thing.? And, I'm like, ?What the heck are you doing?? You do negotiations like all hell behind the scenes of random stuff that most people don't think of. So, have you always been creative in that capacity?

Nathan:	I'm not sure that I have been, but I will tell you:  Architecture ? when I was studying at Virginia Tech ? taught me a lot about empathy. You have to think about when you build this building, where does the light come in in the morning? Is there a chair there that they like to read in in the morning that hits the left side of their cheek, and makes them feel? So, I guess my point is I think I'm really good at getting into people's head, and trying to understand what they want, and trying to help them get what they want, while also getting me something at the same time. And, I think that's like a superpower. And, so, I mean, look, I do that a lot.

Jamie:	Yes, you do. But, it's like there's a ? You're good at seeing connections, right? So, you're like, ?Ooh. And, this, and this.? But, there's always a side of, ?And, they think it's this.?

Nathan:	Always.

Jamie:	So, you're unapologetic about that, also.

Nathan:	Always. Otherwise, it would be, basically, a waste of time.

Jamie:	Okay. Have you read the book Givers and Takers, and stuff like that? And, where do you think you fit on that scale? Because, you give a lot, too. And, that's why I'm confused.

Nathan:	Totally. And, by the way, listen, I record, like after this, I'm recording 20 podcasts for my own show. I give out so ? I've recorded 3,000 episodes for podcast. I give all that content out for free. I give a ton of data out for free. I give a lot of stuff for free. So, I have no problem asking for things when I want them, and by the way, generally, most people are totally cool with when I get a little harder, and say, ?Hey, Jamie.? ? Let's say you wanted something from me ? say, ?Nathan, I want to be on CNN.? And, I say, ?Jamie, great. I'll get you on CNN, but will you have me on your podcast?? And, you're like, ?Oh, he wants something.? But, guess what? You want to be on CNN.

Jamie:	Yeah.

Nathan:	Like, I worked hard for a CNN connection. I'll get you on CNN. So, I'm happy doing these trades like this. I think it's totally fair, and it works.

Jamie:	It is very, very interesting. So, questions about some of the stuff, too, because you share a lot of your deals in the book, which I really appreciate. And, the emails, and the content of, ?This happened, and that happened.? What I find really interesting ? this is what I found out from my own book. I'm not saying anything about yours. But, my publishers ? I did all this data ?

Nathan:	? You're talking Eventual Millionaire?

Jamie:	Yeah.

Nathan:	Yeah.

Jamie:	I did all this data. Nobody checked anything. I put stuff in there. Thankfully, it was really true, but did your people fact check any of this, or is it still the big publishers don't do anything?

Nathan:	No. I mean, they fact checked it, but this is the thing about business books, right? A lot of it's just bullshit. I mean, people just make stuff up, and they put crap in, and a lot of it's theory. Look, I don't want this to be a theory book. I don't want this to be a book that's still relevant in ten years. I want it to be relevant today.

Jamie:	I appreciate you saying that, especially because in the back, you have all these associations; all the top organizations. You have a bunch of amazing data that I'm ?

Nathan:	Totally.

Jamie:	? like, ?This is going to be so outdated really soon,? but you need that.

Nathan:	Yes.

Jamie:	Okay.

Nathan:	I want it to be outdated. Because, I think a lot of business books go, ?I want to put some theoretical framework here that's going to be valuable for decades.? But, the problem is, most people get rich because they take advantage of a trend before anyone else. So, in this book, I put all the things I'm taking advantage of, and you guys ? whoever buys it first ? you guys have the biggest advantage because you're going to get on the trends I'm on before it's too late, and they don't work anymore. You know what happens when they stop working? People then pack it as a course, and sell it as an info-product, and act like they can teach you how to do it, when it will never work. And, it's done.

Jamie:	Ooh, there is so much validity to that.

Nathan:	Yes.

Jamie:	Yes. Unfortunately. Yeah. Things are slow.

Nathan:	And, by the way, Jamie, they didn't have to do a bunch of fact-checking because, look, I mean, this is Page 6 in the book. That's my income ? my tax ? my actual tax return from 2013.

Jamie:	I know. But, people change crap. I'm just saying ? I'm not saying you are. I'm saying, in general, the fact that ? I was in awe that my publisher didn't go back and check.

Nathan:	Who was your publisher?

Jamie:	Wiley.

Nathan:	Okay.

Jamie:	Look at your face.

Nathan:	Well, no. Wiley just has a different model. See, I signed with Random House. They still have this kind of holier than thou kind of <p data-wpview-marker="%5Baudio%20cuts%20out%5D">.</p> [00:17:04] still do fact-checking stuff.

Jamie:	All right. That makes sense. And, our connection got a little wacky. So, who is your audience for this book? Is it the people who have no business whatsoever, and you're looking to help them negotiate the deals, and start something? Or, who's your audience?

Nathan:	This was a question I really struggled with because, honestly, the reason I wrote the book is people kept saying, ?Nathan, like, what do you do?? And, I'm like, ?You know what? I'll just put it all in a book, and tell people what I do.? So, there are things in here from-- like, on Page 33, there's a screen shot of the first $700.00 I made, via Paypal in the script I used to get that sale from my dorm room. You then flip forward to Page 243, and you see a picture from Icon Doctor, where they offered to buy my company for 6 and a half million bucks, when I was 21, and why I walked away from that.

	You then see, on Page 103, the script I used with Ohana Resorts in Bali to trade my ? I only had 2,000 or 3,000 Instagram followers at the time, but I got a bunch of free nights staying at a $500.00 a night hotel for free. So, the book ? You see my real estate deals on Page 122. Like, my actual rent rolls, and what I paid. So, Jamie, the book is really about how do you make more money with a side hustle or real estate, or stuff like that. But, it's also, just as importantly, about:  How do you keep expenses low, and get rich stuff ? luxury stuff ? for free using your assets?

Jamie:	It is a little Tim Parasy in the whole hacker ? Because, you're a deal-maker, and I've saved your emails that you've sent to me trying to get affiliate deals, and all sorts of stuff, because you have pictures of cats, and crazy ? You're just crazy, right?

Nathan:	Thank you. I feel like that's a large compliment.

Jamie:	Is that ? Do you think that's teachable, though, because I was talking about the creativity side, and the pulling part. If that is your zone of genius, do you think you can actually teach anybody how to do that?

Nathan:	No. You can't teach people to be creative, which is why I just had to put the scripts in the book. The book is not:  ?Here's how to be a great copywriter. Think about this sentence structure. Plug in these words from the book words that sell.? It's literally, if you want to buy companies, on Page 197, here is the email script I used to buy companies. Copy what I wrote. I'm not trying to teach people to be creative ? because I agree, that is a creative thing that I have that's very difficult to teach. But, when I come up with something that works, I want to give it away.

Jamie:	Steal it. Copy it. Copy Nathan over, and over, and over again. With the hair, and everything.

Nathan:	Everything.

Jamie:	All of it. No. Okay. So, what is your end goal? Because, this whole thing is all about getting rich, right? But, what is your actual end goal with all of this?

Nathan:	With all of what?

Jamie:	With your life, dude? With your life. This is a big esoteric question, here.

Nathan:	I already told you:  I don't set goals. It's all about systems.

Jamie:	Okay. Then I don't care about your goal. What's your mission?

Nathan:	I think that's also tricky. I think people, when they get asked that question, they make up some baloney like, ?I want to ?

[Crosstalk]

Jamie:	That's why I'm asking you. Exactly.

[Crosstalk]

Nathan:	Look. Look. I like to be able to pat myself on the back every day to feel success. And, the way to do that is to be in the moment; understand what's going on today; and, try to push that forward. For example, right now, I'm very worried about folks like Bernie and AOC pulling a democratic party ? which I love, by the way ? super left. Like, free college. It's just ? It's a little bit scary. So, this is why Fox is having me on over, and over to debate capitalism against AOC. And, by the way, I love her.

	She's pretty. We've partied together. She's got great dance moves, and I want to learn. I mean, we would get along really well. It's just she's ? She feels a little lost to me in terms of how the economy actually works. She's never created a job in her life. So, she doesn't understand what it's like to almost miss payroll, or risk everything to launch the company ? like you and I do. So, that's what ? right now, that's what I'm most concerned about. So, I'm hoping this book kind of helps re-brand capitalism a bit. So, that it's not about ripping people off, and not paying your invoices, but it's about being creative with driving your income up; your expenses down; and creating jobs.

Jamie:	That's really interesting, especially that you swung to the political side on that. I know you have lots of thoughts that you don't also share online about a lot of different things, which I really appreciate. But, you feel like the business side, and you being one of the top guys ? the top ? in the business side will give you the clout, and the reach, in order to actually make change?

Nathan:	Yeah. I mean, look, ten years from now, I don't know what I'm gonna be passionate about. So, what I'm doing today is trying to build distribution channels so that I can point all those channels toward the things I care about in the future. That's why I launched the magazine. That's why I launched the podcast. We just passed ten million downloads. It's why I launched the magazine. It's why I have a private equity firm. It's why I do these things. So, yeah, it's hard for me to answer, to you, what's my end goal. I mean, I'll tell you what I'm planning right now. This will give you a little insight into my head.

	I've hired people off Cirqul.com. There are five of them that I hired. We're going to the next Bernie rally. They are going to act like Bernie supporters; wear Bernie shirts. I'm going to give them all my book. They're going to burn my books because the headline I want run is:  ?Bernie Supporters Burn Capitalist Book.? Like, so, I came up with the headline, and now I have to figure out how to make it true. And, that's how I live my life.

Jamie:	Wow. How do you sleep at night with so much of this crazy energy. Do you meditate? How do you handle all of the ? Because, you run so fast, and there must be so much chaos being thrown at you all at once. Do you meditate? How do you deal with it?

Nathan:	I just dump it. No. I just dump it. I always ? actually, right now, I'm on the left side of my computer screen, I have Apple Notes. And, anytime I have things pass through my head that I like, I just dump it, and I kind of come back to it at the end of every day, and just prioritize. But, I just keep my brain empty. I just dump it, dump it, dump it.

Jamie:	What about the crazy stuff? What about people saying stuff about you, or ? you know what I mean? We're entrepreneurs, and we think really, really fast, typically, anyway. So, you probably have both negative and positive thoughts going through your head constantly.

Nathan:	Well, I'm not really a negative guy to begin honest with you. I mean, I've been hit pretty hard, and I hit back just as hard. I joke with people, but it's actually true. I mean, I'm easily the most sued podcaster because boards hear the CEOs on my show, and then send me cease and desist letters because I got them to reveal their valuation; how much their company is worth; the salary they pay themselves. And, I'm like, ?Listen. The CEO signed the document before coming on my show,? just like I did with you, ?? giving me rights to the audio file. So, screw off.? I win every time. But, if I worried, and got nervous about every time I got a cease and desist letter, I'd never get anything done. So, I just ignore it.

Jamie:	I remember my mentor ? this was back in the day ? was, like, ?You're not a real entrepreneur until you've been sued.? I was like, ?No? Really??

Nathan:	Yeah.

Jamie:	Right. But, but, there's a way that you run your life that you specifically get sued, like you said, a lot more. Why ask people ? actually, not why ask people the data. I understand why the data is really, really intriguing. Transparency is a wonderful thing. Why not tell them that you're going to be so aggressive in advance?

Nathan:	Oh, they know. Jamie, I've put out 3,000 episodes.

Jamie:	Not all of them, though.

Nathan:	Why ?

Jamie:	Not all of them know. Hence, the not liking you thing. They're like, ?Oh, he's a good guy. He's friends with all my friends. I'm gonna go on his podcast. Awesome.? Now, again, their due diligence ? they need to look up some of your shows, right? Very important. That being said, you don't even go, ?Hey, I'm going to grill you a little.?

Nathan:	Well, Jamie, just to be clear, too ? and, I'm going to make a sweeping assumption here ? most of the friends that you're with are putting out courses, or membership sights. Their ?

Jamie:	The ones that I'm talking about are actually real businesses.

Nathan:	Like what? Give me an example.

Jamie:	I shouldn't say real ? I mean, not that courses aren't real businesses.

Nathan:	Give me an example. Like, don't name a person, or a company, but what do you mean, ?A real business.? Like, what sector?

Jamie:	Off ? Retail.

Nathan:	Retail. Okay. By the way, I've only had three or four people, who are retail, on. I think you're probably gonna be referencing right now, someone named Erica, with One [Inaudible] [00:24:56] ?

Jamie:	Yes.

Nathan:	? who I had on my show. I can almost pin it down. Listen, Erica is really smart, okay, but she's all over the place. I mean, she has a great company in One [Inaudible].

Jamie:	Okay. I don't want you to talk about Erica, though. The reason why I was bringing it up is ?

Nathan:	Well, I don't like hypothetical. And, because, see, you just used one example ? one example ?

Jamie:	Yes.

Nathan:	That's a retail example.

Jamie:	Yes.

Nathan:	That I maybe have on my show twice out of 3,000. So, I don't like when people make sweeping generalizations ? like you just did, about my show ? talking about one person, who you know here in Austin ?

Jamie:	Yes.

Nathan:	Because, you saw one thing. I don't like that.

Jamie:	No, no, no. So, there are other people in different sectors. I was bringing up the retail sector so it wasn't just courses. I know some of those people also. But, the reason why I'm asking is the violent opposition that we have, right, in this space, is very interesting. So, when I go, ?Oh, I love Nathan,? I hear people go, ?I hate him.?

Nathan:	Have they ever ? Have they met me?

Jamie:	Oh, I don't even know. I haven't ?

Nathan:	The answer is, ?No.? Because, Jamie, you have felt me when I have hugged you ?

Jamie:	Oh, I know.

Nathan:	I am a massive. I'm the kind of ? Like, I'm a teddy bear in person. The thing is, these ? Here's the thing. This is why I don't feel bad about people when they're surprised when they come on the show. These are the people who accept any meeting. They do no research. They do no preparation. Listen, I reached out to you, and asked you about coming on your show because I've been on before; I respect you; I like you; and, I like the community you've built. You're behind some of the biggest brands online that people don't even know about you're behind. John Dumas, and Pat Flynn, and the Mastermind groups you do. So, I respect you for that. So, people who come on my show, who have never gone an listened ? 

	If you listened two minutes of any of the 3,000 episodes I've ever done, you will know I'm very aggressive. So, I just think it's their fault. Is that bad? I just think it's their fault.

Jamie:	I mean, I totally see where you're coming from. I would not do it, personally. It's all a personal choice, and that's why I was curious. Because, your personal choices are crossing boundaries that I, personally, wouldn't choose. That's the reason why we're bringing it up.

Nathan:	You mean, as a host, or coming on my show?

Jamie:	As a host.

Nathan:	Like, you wouldn't ?

[Crosstalk]

Nathan:	? as a host?

Jamie:	No.

Nathan:	I'm a pretty good host, I think. But, what I'll tell you, Jamie, is the flip-side of this is it's a different show for a different person.

Jamie:	Totally.

Nathan:	The flip-side of this is John's show. If you don't want a numbers-driven, data-driven show, go listen to motivational stuff on Entrepreneurs on Fire. He does a great job at this. I don't want to ? I didn't want to create Entrepreneur on Fire v.2.

Jamie:	Thank you.

Nathan:	Yeah.

Jamie:	Thank you, by the way, because there are quite a few of those out there, also, which I totally get. So, I really respect the fact that you're willing to do something different. Don't get me wrong. It's just it's the whole catch better with honey, and not with ? You know what I mean? So, when ? to me. Again, this is just my personality type, and this is why I appreciate you being willing to talk about this stuff because different personalities are very different. That being said, how do you handle that? I'm asking you for help for me because I don't like to disappoint anyone, as a human, right? I refund like crazy if anyone's ?

Nathan:	Well, I think you should like that a little bit more because if you never disappoint anyone, you are just molding to the world around you. So, if that world's controlling you, then ?

Jamie:	I have children, so yeah, I totally ? There's people ? I get the disappointment side.

Nathan:	But, you're super unique in what you've done, and you have a serious track record that other people don't have. So, if you just mold to what people want from you in today's world, you're just constantly molding. I prefer to be like a pillar versus a bucket of water, right? That can kind of mold anything. And, so ?

Jamie:	One of my favorite Bruce Lee quotes is, ?Be like water.? So, I'm sorry. Go ahead.

Nathan:	Yeah. No, no. I get it. But, look, and here's what I'll tell you. My podcast has a massive wait-list. We're recorded through the end of 2020 already. If I died today, you'd get an episode through the end of 2020.

Jamie:	2020?

Nathan:	Yes. We're having no problem getting people on because the show is doing so well. I mean, it really is. People don't have to come on. We don't need the interviews. We have plenty of amazing guests, and some of them ? by the way, some of the largest CEOs in the software space, in the world, beg to come on my show. Like, Cvent. Cvent with Reggie has come on many times. They're passed $700 million bucks in revenue. Alasian president, Jay, just came on.

Jamie:	Nice.

Nathan:	So, these people are coming on, and I'll tell you this, by the way ? you probably get this, too. Those episodes never do as well as the people who are just starting because the big CEOs ? they're inspirational, but they're not actionable. So, actually, the people I have on, who are just starting, are way more actionable advice, but, again, my point is here, we don't need people on the show if they don't want to come on.

Jamie:	Yeah. Do you ask ? So, the high-level CEOs, and stuff like that ? are they allowed to share? How do you get through that? Do they just avoid the question, and you just push them harder? How does that all work?

Nathan:	Well, it just depends. So, Cvent ? he came on. It's clear he didn't want to share revenue. So, in the beginning of the interview, I asked, ?Well, how many customers do you have?? And, then I waited five minutes; made small talk; and, then I asked, ?Well, what does the average customer pay per year?? And, then, he gave me a number. And, then, he gave me a number. And, then I said, ?Great. So, I multiply your customer account, times your average thing per year, so your revenue is $700 million.? He's like, ?Well, Nathan, you do good math. That's right on the money.? So, ?

Jamie:	Okay.

Nathan:	? and I do it with charm. This is how I get ? By the way, if I was a mean dude, nobody would get these. I'm actually very good at caring about people, charming people, making them feel good, making them a friend in under 15 minutes ? to get very sensitive data.

Jamie:	Yeah. Yeah. I know you. I totally understand that. One of the questions that I say ? or, one of the things that I say, which I didn't say to you because I know you ? is is there anything you want me to stay away from whenever I interview somebody. Because, as soon as we come up against that, I feel real resistance, and then they are not a good guest, typically, anymore. So, how do you deal with the, ?Uh. Now I don't like Nathan. I'm put on the spot. This is crazy,? after you ask all those questions?

Nathan:	You address it head-on. ?Jamie, this question may ? I can see by your face, that made you feel uncomfortable. Instead of answering my question, why don't you tell me, why do you have hesitation there?? You just talk ?

Jamie:	You're smooth.

Nathan:	It's not smooth, Jamie. You just talk about it. Like, you just ?

Jamie:	It's still smooth. It's still smooth.

Nathan:	I'm reading someone's body language.

Jamie:	Yeah.

Nathan:	By the way, I had such a genius episode the other day with Susan [inaudible] [00:31:02]. I started doing this, and she was clamming up. And, I didn't want ? I'm not a mean guy. I didn't want to beat her to death.

Jamie:	Yeah. Thank you. Good.

Nathan:	So, I said, ?Susan, I can feel you clamming up a little bit. What's going on.? And, she's like, ?Well, Nathan, what happened was we took debt, like, three years ago, and it wasn't fixed rate.? And, she's running a software company. Now, the debt ? the interest has increased, and she's having problem meeting debt payments, and is trying to restructure. And, that episode was so valuable because we got into strategies on how to restructure debt. If I never pushed her in the beginning to get her to that vulnerable point, and then let her resolve the vulnerability, rather than being a good host, we never would have got that value.

Jamie:	Was she okay ? So, I love the getting the real part. I work with seven-figure entrepreneurs all the time, and it's the stuff that they're like, ?I'm kinda going through stuff.? And, nobody wants to show that. And, not that everybody should online. I really don't think that that's necessarily true, but was she okay with what she said after the fact?

Nathan:	If she wasn't, it wouldn't matter.

Jamie:	To you, yes. But, I'm asking about her. To her, it would matter.

Nathan:	Yeah. By the way, I don't know. She just came ? She paid a lot of money to come to my conference a week ago ?

Jamie:	Really?

Nathan:	And, the podcast was published a long time ago.

Jamie:	That's ?

Nathan:	She talks to me all the time. I've helped her try to restructure the debt. But, I guarantee you, in the moment, she's thinking, ?Oh, my god. I hope he never publishes this.?

Jamie:	?Oh, crap, oh, crap, oh, crap.?

Nathan:	Totally.

Jamie:	Exactly. But, it's a testament to you to have her come to your conference, and to still be in touch, and be okay with that.

Nathan:	Yeah. There are very few CEOs, who I've had on the show, who actually hate me in real life. Many of them respect me, and they go, ?You know what? I want to come on again, and see if I can survive Nathan. See if I can get around him.? It's almost like a game. I know CEOs play this game now because they've told me about it.

Jamie:	It's like the whole Shark Tank thing because it's like, ?Oh, oh. They can be assholes, and that's fine, and everybody still likes them.? Right?

Nathan:	Yeah.

Jamie:	I guess that's sort of my point. And, we need to start wrapping up in just a second. But, the Nathan persona online is very, very aggressive. You are aggressive anyway, but I don't feel like you show your teddy bear as much as you could, right? So, what makes you keep that separate?

Nathan:	I like the delta between my online personality, and who I am in person, to be as large as possible, because it's surprising.

Jamie:	That's insane.

Nathan:	If you only know me from online, and you see me at a conference, you are expecting hell. And, then when you talk to me after my keynote, and I hug you, and I stay and answer all of your questions for 20 minutes, and I miss my flight because I stay longer than I need to, you're like, ?Oh, my gosh. This guy's a massive teddy bear. I've been all wrong.? And, that delta, I think, is actually very important.

Jamie:	That's insane. Did you always know that before you started this persona, too. Because, you've been up to my house. I want to do game night with you, right?

Nathan:	Yeah.

Jamie:	So, it's just when I hear people say stuff, it's such a stark contrast ? which, did you know, and plan on making it that huge?

Nathan:	Well, I've realized now what a big advantage it is for me because it's the old adage, ?Under promise; over deliver.? If people are expecting the devil, and you give them someone average, you look like an angel because they were expecting the devil. Do you see what I'm saying?

Jamie:	I do. Very interesting perspective. Very, very interesting. I know we have to start wrapping up. I appreciate you dancing with me, Nathan. I love this stuff. What is one action listeners can take this week to move them forward toward their goal of a million?

Nathan:	I think understanding how to decrease expenses is really, really most important. So, if I were listening right now, and I want to decrease expenses, I would go to Page 103 in the book, or you can get it for free. You can get this part for free at CapitalistBook.com. 103. And, basically there are a bunch of email scripts there, how I get stuff for free, that are usual expenses that you guys are probably paying for right now. So, I think focusing on decreasing your expenses is really important, and that's a good place to start.

Jamie:	I love that you say that because it's all about getting rich, and people forget about that part of the entire equation, which I appreciate. Yes. Money matters. And, keeping it matters even more. Thank you so much for coming on the show. What's that book website again, so everyone can take a look?

Nathan:	It is just CapitalistBook.com. My publisher hates how much I give away for free there, so just don't buy the book. Go there and get it.

Jamie:	They're gonna love this interview. Thank you so much for coming on the show today. And, I'm going to beat you in Catan.

Nathan:	Thanks, Jamie.

Tags: Four Rules to Get Rich, Goal Setting, How To Be A Capitalist, How To Be A Capitalist Without Any Capital, how to become rich, how to become rich with no money, Millionaire entrepreneur, Nathan Latka, Pivotal changing points in business, podcast, Secret Millionaire, serial entrepreneur, Software Private Equity Firm Latka Capital, start-ups / startups, startup entrepreneur, The Top Entrepreneur?s Podcast

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Hi I’m Jaime. Each and every week I bring you the top business advice from the people who know best.

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