Step by Step Starting a Business with Benjamin Sayers

Entrepreneur and CEO of VoIP Supply – Benjamin Sayers

Exactly what he has on his checklists, how he sizes up his competition, what type of business plans he creates, and how he sets goals up front. Ben is a serial entrepreneur. One of his company’s is VoIP Supply, and he is starting a new one. He went through the exact process that he uses to start each of his businesses.

Resources mentioned in the podcast:

• Mastering the Rockefeller Habits by Verne Harnish
• Business Model Generation: A Handbook for Visionaries, Game Changers, and Challengers

 

Check out BenjaminSayers.com and VoIPSupply.com for more info!

Thanks so much for listening!

Transcript:

Jaime: Welcome to Eventual Millionaire. I'm Jaime Tardy and today I'm excited to have Benjamin Sayers on the show. He owns a company called VoIP Supply and they did $23.5 million last year so he is a breadth of experience on starting companies, he's started quite a few, and I'm really excited to get into it today. Also, looking at all the accolades they've been getting, they're one of the fastest growing companies in western New York, one of the best places to work, those are the two that are the best to have, so really excited to have you on the show, thanks so much for coming on, Ben.

Ben: My pleasure.

Jaime: Thanks so much. How long ago did you start VOIP Supply? Because that wasn't your first business, right?

Ben: That's correct. VoIP Supply started officially in March of 2002 and the website wasn't launched until August of 2004, the site that was specific to Voice Over IP. The two years leading up to it were a completely different business altogether.

Jaime: Why don't you tell people what VoIP Supply is, in case they don't already know?

Ben: We're an online retailer of VoiceOver IP equipment -- we don't see a service, we don't do the installations. Most of our sales are not through the website, although that's our primary source of attracting customers. About 80% of our business comes through our call center, and mostly because the technology is not particularly simple and most of our customers come to us because we're known in the industry for expertise in what products work with which phone  systems, which headsets, how it's going to solve the problem, so really we have a collection of sales engineers versus equipment sales people.

Jaime: So what's a typical client for you?

Ben: They range from single people to the government, the typical for us is a small to medium business, anywhere from 5 to 25 employees is the typical range but there's lots of outliers, whether they're universities, large corporations, they're all over the place. A good chunk of our customers are actually phone system installers and integrators, the local companies that will go to a business and do the installation, training and support, they come to us to get the equipment.

Jaime: I used to work in that industry and it's kind of a pain to have to know what works with what. What made you start the business in the first place? Because you said it's morphed from something else.

Ben: For the first year and a half of the business we were taking advantages of the internet explosion. In 2001 we were brokering a lot of very high end Cisco and Juniper networking equipment but that market kind of dried up and got very competitive and what we found during that time was a lot of people were looking for used Cisco IP phones because they were one of the only people out there that made a good quality Voice Over IP desk phone but then when we were talking with the customers that were looking for them, they said they were looking for used or refurbished equipment, or inexpensive, because at the time, in 2004, Voice Over IP was primarily open-sourced phone systems, people were putting them together themselves, and the intent was to save money and you can't save money with your phone system when a new Cisco phone is $700 per phone. We took that as an opportunity to not just be able to source the used Cisco equipment but rather to find a place where they can everything they needed for their phone system, whether it was networking equipment, a variety of phones that they could choose from, from the low-end, inexpensive phones all the way up to the color screen $1000 phones, as well as the other equipment that they might have needed, like a server for their phone system, different desk phones, conference phones, analogue adapters, just a wide variety of things, and there was no online store that carried everything. You had to go to three or four different places to put together all the components, so there was a market for that, to create a store where you could get everything you needed.

Jaime: So what made you the person to go and do that? Because people were asking you and you thought it would be a good market opportunity?

Ben: Yeah.

Jaime: I love that. "This might be a good idea, let's go and trythat."

Ben: It aligned with the buying and selling of the equipment and had a lot of context in that network telecom industry and they were looking for this and it's like starting any other company - the objective of solving a problem or fulfilling the need is the key.

Jaime: So you're like "There's a problem, I can solve it," it just makes perfect sense to go that route. But you already had a business that was going, but you said it was going down a little bit, which made this the perfect opportunity?

Ben: It wasn't going down, we were actually growing pretty quickly. What it was is that online auctions became a thing in 2002, they didn't exist prior to that.

Jaime: That's crazy. I forget - way back when, you know?

Ben: Yeah. It was called Dub Bid, I believe was the place, it was one of the first online auction sites and it just got to the point where it was completely saturated with people trying to buy the same equipment, even to the point where they were paying way more than they should - they could have bought from us for less than they were bidding for it at the auction. The other piece at the time that was an issue was a lot of the used equipment was getting mixed and matched with an incredible amount of counterfeit equipment that was coming in with China and it was a real liability to be in that marketplace after a while because Cisco is very protective of their brand and they have a real issue with grey market sales, people selling used equipment, they don't particularly like them and it just wasn't a great place from a business perspective, there was much more low hanging fruit in Voice Over IP than trying to compete in the used equipment market.

Jaime: That's really interesting. So how did you know that this was the way to go? You'd started businesses beforehand, so this was just a case of plugging in the model you already knew worked? You didn't have to cut your teeth or anything like that?

Ben: Kind of. This company started as a non-compete time filler. I sold my company in 2001, a company called IDR, and we wrote interactive voice response software, so in my first business I was a programmer and we wrote telecoms software. To go from that to buying and selling hardware, it was a completely different game, which added to the fun and excitement of it, going and learning something completely new.

Jaime: Did you always know that you were going to be an entrepreneur?

Ben: I didn't know it but I always have been. I didn't think about it, it was just something to do. I've always worked and I've always loved working. But when I go back and think about it, since I was a kid I've had probably about 10-15 differentbusinesses from selling iced tea door to door to alarm systems in the college dorms. My brother and I had an amazing lawn company for two kids, when I was 10 and he was 12 we probably had 50 lawns that we cared for, and for a kid of 10 making that kind of money was ridiculous. It was great - my father taught us the work ethic but we were a very poor family, so if I wanted something, that was it - go and earn the money. So we founda way. We wanted lots of stuff and we found a way tomake the money.

Jaime: So are either of your parents entrepreneurs?

Ben: Both of them are. My father is actually a philosopher, he has a PhD in Philosophy and Ethics and was a teacher at the time, a university teacher, and my mother is a geriatric nurse practitioner and she was working in nursing homes at the time. Now they've both started their own companies, and actually now they're both retired.

Jaime: So at the time that you were going crazy with lawnmowing and stuff, neither of them had business experience?

Ben: No, they had work ethics.

Jaime: And you had "I know what I want and I'll figure out a way to get it." What was your first real business? Was IDR your first business?

Ben: Yeah. In 1995 I left my last real employment and started IDR. During IDR I started another company inside of it that was a medical transcription, dictation platform that basically took the dictations and put it into a database structure so that practitioners could use the data instead of just going through Word documents.

Jaime: So what made you decide to leave your corporate job and start something on your own? Tell me about that transition.

Ben: My last employer was a gifted businessman but he was a bad person. He didn't know how to treat his employees. I left because of a gratitude issue - the straw that broke that camel's back was that I'd spent the weekend, from Friday night, at his business, rewiring his network from a coax network to a Novell network and I didn't know Novell and I was just opening the box to learn Novell so I spent the entire weekend installing, running cables, setting up computers, setting up the network and on Monday morning, at about 7am when he came into the building and stepped over me because I'd fallen asleep in the hallway, the only question he had for me was "Is it done?"

Jaime: "Thanks!"

Ben: It was done, but a simple thank you would have been perfect, that's really all I wanted. But the two years prior to that, I had started off in data entry and pretty much worked in every single department in that company as I progressed and I really felt overly confident that never mind him, I can go and start my own company, compete with him and do extremely well.

Jaime: Tell me more about that.

Ben: That lasted about six months and I realized there wasn't a chance I could compete with this guy. He was doing the 1-900 newspaper personals, that was the business, so they had the platforms that allowed people to call in and listen to those ads on 900 numbers and make revenue off that and the 800 numbers for calling in and checking messages and things of that nature. So our reaction to that, to survive, was to get rid of the 900 side of the business and just modify the toll-free side of it to createcustomer applications. Wedid a lot of employment screening automation, surveys and contests and sweepstakes, we created an automated dialing platform that delivered messages - we were the ones that delivered millions and millions of those annoying political campaign messages.

Jaime: Oh, thank you for that, appreciate it.

Ben: They got on my answering machine too.

Jaime: You're like "Why did I create this?"

Ben: I can't even vote and I still called myself! It took a couple of years for that business, like any company, for the first couple of years I didn't get a pay check, I worked 24 hours a day, I got married, had a child, got a new dog, all of that during the same time period, so as much stuff as you could pile on. We lived off credit cards for the first couple of years and in the third year we were finally able to break even and pay that off and from there it really grew exponentially to the point where it was so much fun, so worth it from a business standpoint.

Jaime: What made you stick at it for three years? I mean I know it takes a while before it works but having family at home who need to eat, that kind of stuff, what made you stick with it?

Ben: Incremental progress. Any positive feedback that we got, an enquiry from a potential customer was the fuel to get through the day. It was probably a year before we had any substantial revenue at all, but once we did we could see the potential for it and we were able to work with those customers and build those customers and we could see that, although we were still burning through cash, we were getting closer and closer to that break-even point. That was the fuel. There wasn't any big win that said "Okay, we're going to keep doing this," it was daily wins. That's really what we needed - a piece of code that worked right was just fine.

Jaime: You said "we", was it just you that started it, or was it you and other people?

Ben: I had a 50-50 business partner at the time. He had a family of three and couldn't afford to leave his job so he was working evenings and weekends at home, so it was really just me for the first year and a half and when we did finally get that first customer he was unavailable and I didn't know how to program so I learned very quickly and we won the business and wrote the code and that ended up being our best customer for the entire duration of the company.

Jaime: And you didn't even know how to code - I just assumed that you were the guy who did that sort of thing, but you ended up learning it?

Ben: Yeah.

Jaime: You've got to do what you've got to do in your business, right? "Someone needs code, I've got to write it!" So you ended up selling that?

Ben: We were poached in 2000 by a French telecom company who were looking to expand into the US market by acquisition of five different companies and we were one of the five we weren't looking to sell but they approached us with an offer that really wasn't worth refusing.

Jaime: Are you allowed to say what that offer was or not?

Ben: The sale was around $4.5 - 5 million.

Jaime: Do you feel like it was your passion? For a lot of people that's what really fuels them to keep going.

Ben: What, specifically?

Jaime: IDR. Running that stuff.

Ben: I think what it's evolved into - it doesn't matter what the business is, what we're building or selling - I like building the company, doing all the little things. I've just promoted my CFO to President and started a new company last Monday, so I'm upstairs on the warehouse mezzanine by myself starting from zero right now.

Jaime: Really? Let's talk about that. So you've started a couple of different companies, you love starting businesses, so let's talk about this new one. I don't know if you can talk about it yet, but talk us through the startup process - number one, figuring out what's a good idea.

Ben: In this particular case it's really a no brainer - VoIP Supply has always sold hardware only and not provided any of the services that go around it - no dial up tone, no installation, no support other than hardware support, and we did that because a lot of our customers would have been competitors and that point so it would havebeen a conflict of interest. But the technology and the marketplacehas changed where more and more customers who are calling us for hardware want to compare it with our hosted, cloud-based platform. So it's a separate company that's a sister to VoIP Supply, it's not technically starting from the idea stage but the company is a new LLC with no infrastructure.

Jaime: I love that you say that it's a no-brainer. You were just going through your existing business and saw another need and thought "Let's do thattoo," and that's whatyou did last time. I think that's what a lot of people don't understand, when they haven't started a business yet, that once you get into it you're going to learn so much about your customers and what they need and even if it's not this specific business you're going to find so many other opportunities, that you can't all do, of course, but once you dive into it you'll find more and that's worked out very well for you, it sounds like.

Ben: Yeah, it's worked out very well.

Jaime: So you started on Monday - congratulations by the way! What's the next step? How will you go about building this business?

Ben: I've got achecklist that I need to go through. There's some very basic stuff - I have to go to the bank and sort out my checking account and get a credit card, that sort of stuff, and setting up my phone system and putting a website up and putting some content there and setting up a general infrastructure, e-mail and Google Apps and all that sort of stuff, develop the social side of it, from a marketing perspective, we have to go out and lock down the various names and handles that are applicable to the business. I sort of skipped the business plan this time, there's a different kind of business plan, I used a visual representation of the plan. There's just so much, that's what I love about it, so many little things that need to get done - right now I'm in the middle of a competitiveanalysis, not just competitor's pricing but what makes them special, where there's mistakes and weaknesses, what's their purpose, as a business? That's a big driver for me, both with VoIP Supply and any other company - why are we coming to work? It's got nothing to do with revenue, what's the actual outcome that we hope to have here? So what those competitors have as a purpose, if any, and surprisingly a lot of them don't, or they don't have a clear one. Then just comparing and looking for patterns, whether they're positive or negative patterns - we see that 10 out of 12 competitors aren't doing this, which we think is something customers are asking for or need. Then walking downstairs and asking the sales people at VoIP Supply - what are customers asking for? How are we going to approach this in a way that immediately addresses the majority of concerns that customers have so that we don't have to compete.

Jaime: How do you do that? Do you have a spreadsheet where you start writing strengths and weaknesses? Do you do a spot analysis? What is your process?

Ben: Spreadsheet. I've got various columns that I want to fill in - good, better, best - do they have any freebies, do they have online chat, do they do local installation, web support, 24 support? Strengths and weaknesses, what's their purpose, how long they've been around, how many customers they have, whether they're public or private, whether they have an agency program for resellers. Then I can look back at that and look for patterns.

Jaime: So you're doing all the research yourself because you want to know it? I like that, that's really interesting. Tell me about that business plan too.

Ben: It breaks it up into seven different areas of the business - things like who the target markets are, our costs, our revenue streams, what partners we need, what customer issues we're looking to address or resolve or what need we're looking to fill, and putting a sticky on there for each of those components. The nice thing is it allows me to explain the business plan to anyone, it's a common language, they're going to get it, they're going to understand it - it's not necessary a numbers thing, we don't need to talk about that as much. The nice thing about this, the template and the stickies, is that they're all inter-connected, so if I say I'm going to sell to the government but I'm also going to sell to small businesses, and all the things that I need to sell to the government and the things I need to sell to small businesses might be different, so if I want to remove the sticky for the government because it's too difficult, it's going to pull off a lot of other stickies and clear up the board and help to see the impact of making a small change.

Jaime: Nice. Is that actually from Business Model Generation? Is that the name of the book?

Ben: Yeah.

Jaime: That's what I thought it was. My literary agent was the literary agent on that book too, so we've been chatting a lot about it,and I've been seeing it pop up everywhere lately, so I'll definitely link to that book too because they have these huge templates, just like that, which I've seen before. The stickies, like you said, make it really easy to move around. Did you do real business plans, like 30-60 page business plans before, for your other businesses?

Ben: I have.

Jaime: So what made you decide to change over from that model to this one?

Ben: I listened to the guy who wrote the book speak about it at a conference a year or two ago and I gues the workshop experience of his speech really hit home when he asked everybody to explain what a business plan is. All of the six people at the table I was sitting at wrote down something different, so it's really difficult to explain what it is. I went through it with my staff when I got back - we put it up on the wall and I said "Let's go through VoIP Supply and go through the business plan so that everyone understands it." We taught a class here in the business so that everyone had an opportunity to learn about it and see it from that standpoint. It was pretty helpful.

Jaime: So what do you like about this? I've done 120 interviews and only a few have said they've made the 30-60 page business plan and most of them don't do that anymore at all. So what's the evolution? What is better about this way?

Ben: I still do both, to be honest with you. I do the financial side of itthe traditional way and you can tie it in with this - there is an iPad app where you can tie the financials in with each sticky, that's really cool. I was talking with the CFO who only wants to see the numbers and doesn't care about the visuals.

Jaime: "Just look at the app!"

Ben: And the same would be true if I were to go to a financial resource, whether it was a bank or an angel, a friend or a relative - I can explain it easier to anyone if it's visual, but I've stuck with the numbers to back it up. With VoIP Supply and with companies before that, I always had a business plan but it was never a closed document. It's always a living plan because things change. We don't really do that anymore, what we do now is kind of based on the book The Rockefeller Habits,  a one page strategic plan, and our management team goes off site for two or three days every quarter and we put together the strategic plan. We do it at the beginning of the year and talk about where we want to be at the end of 3-5 years, where we want to be at the end of this year and what we're going to do in the next 90 days to help us get to our goal.

Jaime: That's what I was going to ask you - to make sure that you actually all paying attention to what those are and keep accountable for it, so you set 90 days goals, how do you check in within those 90 days?

Ben: We do a weekly meeting, we call it a lawn meeting, where everyone in the company comes together on Monday morning and we go through the various components of the one page plan that are tied in with what we've called our critical number, which is made up of numbers from every department in the company, so we can drill into it and see how the company's doing overall, here's where we're doing really well, here's where there's room for improvement. That helps to bring together everyone in the company so that they know their role, knows that they have an impact and can see how they're making an impact and also increases their accountability. You might single out a sales guy and say "Come on, you're not pulling your weight."

Jaime: "I want my number up, you've got to bump yours up."

Ben: And it doesn't have to be coming from me.

Jaime: So how are you implementing that strategy with the new company? You don't have ateam where you can do that sort of stuff yet. So how are you setting goals and working the accountability in with that?

Ben: I'm the team so I'm meeting with myself! I'm doing the same process, really. I'm going through the one page plan for where I want to be at the end of the year and what I need to do to get to that goal. I would like to be at 100 customers in 12 months, so what do I need to do to get to that goal? I've got two so far and I've been doing it for a week so I'm on track.

Jaime: That's perfect - you need two a week if you want to hit 100 in a year. Is that what you decided? "I want 100 customers in a year so I need two per week," and just backed it up to find that?

Ben: Yeah, and I want to break even and pay back any loss within 18 months so in order to do that I need to get on track. I made it a little bit easier by cutting my pay out of the picture, so I'm not getting a pay check right now which, for me, creates a sense of urgency - if I want to get a paycheck again and pay my bills I need to get this thing rolling.

Jaime: I love that tactic - you're not taking a paycheck, I think that's awesome. Thankfully you've got a lot of resources, but let's talk about bootstrapping, because it sounds like at the first company you did, you guys did whatever you could do, but have you taken loans or funding forany of them?

Ben: I was very fortunate - when I left my job, one of the girls that worked there left with me, she was the admin for the company, I had gotten her the job there, she was a high school friend, and it just happened that she was dating a guy down in Maryland whose parents had just died and left him a ton of money and he was willing to take the risk just on her recommendation that I was going to be successful, so we were able to borrow money from him with the guarantee that I would double his money in three years

Jaime: Can you tell us how much money you borrowed?

Ben: I borrowed $50,000 from him and $100,000 from his sister.

Jaime: Oh, really? Because his sister had money too.

Ben: And my father lent me some too, under the same terms. I didn't take out a paycheck for the first year, year and a half, but it slowly built. It might not have been a full paycheck, just whatever the company could afford to pay out, so it got better and better.

Jaime: Were you able to pay him back? So one of the reasons you weren't profitable at first was because we were still trying to pay them back?

Ben: We renegotiated after three years because we didn't have a chance, there was no way we were going to be able to pay it back, we were just getting our head above water after three years, but we had a nice enough relationship with them, and keeping in communication with them as to how we were doing. They knew we were going to pay them back but just couldn't do it right now, so we extended the note and put interest on top of that.

Jaime: That's great that you could do that and the relationship was okay and it worked out well. On both sides, because you care, that's important too. What happened with your next company? You sold that one, which made quite a bit of profit, did you take that into the new company?

Ben: Yeah, so that was basically self-funded. I made so many mistakes on the second company, ridiculous mistakes. A lot of it was because we had money - we had enough that we weren't particularly careful, although we should have been, and we were growing at such a ridiculous pace that a lot of things just fell by the wayside. Our focus was on supply and demand and making sure we had happy customers and enough leads but we didn't have the books, we didn't have processes and procedures, we didn't have any of the things that really help standardize and automate and improve the efficiency of the business, but we went from $2 million to $7 million, $14million, $21million, $25million, the rate of growth was crazy, so in the middle there we had to slam on the brakes and bring in three or four outsourced CFOs to fix our books in six months, it cost about $300,000 just to fix the books, and the worst part was, with all said and done, they informed us that not only did we not make $300,000 in income the year before, we had lost $500,000.

Jaime: Ah! You're like "We're doing really well - $2 million, $4 million. Oh crap, we're losing money!"

Ben: Yeah, we weren't keeping track, we didn't have good books, and that was me for not making a good call on who was running my accounting department. I assumed they were doing what they told me they were doing.

Jaime: So what advice can you give people to not make the same mistake as you, especially if they're growing quickly?

Ben: I would say get someone that is more qualified than you at the beginning,versus having an under qualified bookkeeper, maybe using an outsourced CFO, so they're not on your payroll, it's a service you're using, but from day one you're doing accurate books, and someone who's outside the company, not you, is confirming the validity of the numbers. That would have made a huge difference for us. But even just having a process of checks and balances. The quick books was a detriment to us at the time because back then they didn't allow you to close the books so they were open, you could go back and make changes to your financials from a year ago. So the girl that was running the books, if something came up,she could just go back and make a change. I really didn't have any quality checks and balances. I would be told one thing and something else was happening. So know who's working for you.

Jaime: Huge, costly, learning curve. Good to know, though, especially for people who are just starting. It's one of the things that we tend to ignore - we think it's about income, let's just keep generating revenue, and you forget about the rest of the stuff as the money flies out the back. Very good point. I know we have to start wrapping up in just a minute - can you give me one thing that you feel like you've learned from starting companies, as advice for people that are just starting right now and may not feel confident. You sound confident, you've done this many times before, you know what you're doing - what about somebody who's just starting, who knows they can do it, like you did when you first quit, and then getting into it and realizing this is much harder than you thought. What sort of advice do you have for someone like that?

Ben: There's a couple of things that I've learned over the last 15-20 years or so, but the thing I've stumbled on a couple of times, is allowing that entrepreneurial wandering of "I can do that, I can do that, I can do all of these different things." Focus on what's going to get you to your break-even point and do it extremely well - once you're doing well you can do other things, but until you've got that nailed down. I've done it so many times, I just start something else - I'm bored with this, I want to move on to something else, that looks like a good idea, maybe I should try that. So focus, and one way to do that is with the one page plan - we can stay on that for a whole year, there's no deviation from it, the department has a formal goal and that's their number one focus. So have your top five priorities and work out what's your top one of five. Write them out on 3x5's? "These are the things I should be focusing on", "This is the number one thing I should be doing today." This sounds silly, put  them in your pocket and look at it every 15 minutes - if you're not doing the number one thing on that list, you are not doing a good job and you need to get back to that one thing. Even if you only accomplish one thing in one day, you got one thing done. It doesn't have to be a big thing - that's what I was saying with those first businesses, those small accomplishments add up to a big win and they keep you focused. Crossing something off a list has a really good feeling to it.

Jaime: Definitely. That's amazing, and I'm glad to hear that you also have the entrepreneurial wandering, do you know what I mean? "Squirrel!" Everyone that I talk to has that and that's one of the key issues that I see. You seemed very focused and ready to go and it's good to know that before it wasn't so easy for you.

Ben: It's a very expensive mistake. I read so many books that told me not to do it but I thought "I'm better than that, I'm smarter than that, I can do it." 

Jaime: That's what we do, we're very confident in ourselves - "I can handle it, that's not me." Lesson to the wise. I always ask the same last question - what's one action listeners can take this week to help move them forward towards their goal of a million?

Ben: I would say pick up the book Rockefeller Habits and implement it. You could spend two or three years getting that book nailed down but the process and the ideas within that book really help any business get focused and get aligned and the functions of being focused, that's the next step tp being successful.

Jaime: Perfect. I haven't actually read that book yet so I'll have to make sure that's my action too. Thank you so much for coming on the show today - I really, really appreciate it. Where can we find out more about you and your site online?

Ben: I blog about a wide variety of topics, just benjaminsayers.com. VoIPSupply.com is the primarycomponent of the holding company here, the business, and it's very active from a social standpoint, so there's lots of information about our company, about our culture, about who we are, why we're here, what we're doing and lots of updates about the activities that happen in the company.

Jaime: I love that too. your site was very in-depth so as you talked about purpose and that stuff I was like "I read that on your website!" on what yours is and I really appreciate you telling me what you feel but also being able to see it implemented in person, so everyone should check that out so they can see how you're doing it. Thank you so much for coming on the show today, I really appreciate it.

Ben: My pleasure, thanks for having me.

Jaime: Take care.

Ben: You too.

Tags: Benjamin Sayers, business startup, Goal Setting, Idea Validation, millionaire interview, Startup

Categories: All, Business, Business Model, Entrepreneurship, Millionaire Interviews

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