Purpose Is The Opposite Of Depression With Cathy Heller

Check out and download Belay Solutions’ Personal Guide for a Productive Workweek.

Cathy Heller is a fire hose of inspiration. She’s the host of the popular podcast, Don’t Keep Your Day Job, which has over 14 million downloads and has been featured in Forbes, Entrepreneur Magazine, HuffPost, Inc Magazine, Business Insider, and several times by Apple.

Each week Cathy encourages thousands of listeners to find more purpose and get paid to do what they love. Throughout the show, she has interviewed creative entrepreneurs like actress Jenna Fischer, blogger Seth Godin, singer-songwriter Jason Mraz, NYT bestselling author Malcolm Gladwell, Bobbi Brown Cosmetics founder Bobbi Brown, designer Jonathan Adler, psychologist Adam Grant, Shark Tank’s Barbara Corcoran, Starbucks’s Howard Schultz, HGTV’s Property Brothers, actor Matthew McConaughey, and author Gretchen Rubin to name a few.

Cathy’s book, Don’t Keep Your Day Job, was released in November 2019 with Macmillan. It’s filled with inspirational stories from people in her community who have taken control of their life’s journey. Her book goes into detail about how to find the work you’re meant to do, grow your business, and wake up to a life you love.

She is a phenomenal coach for creative entrepreneurs and she’s helping people everywhere add their gifts to the world. Cathy often says “purpose is the opposite of depression” and she is truly lifting others to be the happiest version of themselves.

“The equal sign next to sales is intimacy. If you wanna make literally a million, two million, three million, five million, or $20 million, it’s not how many people are on your list. It’s how deep the connection goes.” – Cathy Heller

Episode Highlights:

Why is purpose the opposite of depression
Getting past your fears and doubts to open yourself for a more abundant life
Finding your purpose and getting clarity
Advice to people who want to quit their day job and open a business
Navigating your inspired actions
Finding out who you’re meant to serve (And building an engaged audience)
Recognizing your line of vulnerability to your audience

Transcript: Download

Video Transcription provided by GMR Transcription Services.

Jaime: Welcome to Eventual Millionaire. I am Jaime Masters and today on the show we have Cathy Heller. You can check her out cathyheller.com. I love the name of her podcast and book. It's called "Don't Keep Your Day Job". Thanks so much for coming on the show today.

Cathy: Thank you so much for having me.

Jaime: You've had 14 million downloads: Matthew McConaughey, Jason Mraz. Very, very impressive. Tell me more about what got you to start that podcast to begin with.

Cathy: That's so nice. I think now we're almost at 18 million downloads. Isn't that fun?

Jaime: Yes. I'm assuming. You're like woo-hoo!

Cathy: It's so fun. What got me to start the podcast is magic. It's like when you step into the possibility and you keep feeling into what's my assignment here in this world. You just feel like, oh my gosh! I just expect every day for some new, cool something to come and that's what happened. Somebody I knew said why don't you start a podcast. And I said maybe I should do that. Then she said well I know this woman and she works with a bunch of other podcasters. I met with her for lunch. She said if you start a podcast, it can really become something. I said well, how many people need to listen to a podcast for it to actually make money with an ad? She said probably like 20,000 an episode. I'm like, what? That's hard. But I just started and then it kind of just took off and it's been such a blessing.

Jaime: Tell me more. Tell me more about taking off because especially you really talk about purpose. One of the things that you say which I thought was awesome is purpose is the opposite of depression. I like that you sort of linked the two and it sounds like you kind of live your life that way. Tell me a little bit more about that.

Cathy: Yeah. I feel very strongly that we're all suffering unnecessarily. I've heard it said that pain is inevitable, but suffering is optional. I think the suffering we do is because we know that we have something to contribute but we're not sure how and we don't feel seen. A lot of people walk around feeling kind of invisible. They want to be happy, or so they think. They try to buy the car. They try to get the relationship. They're looking for it outside of themselves, but what I've seen with myself and I've seen it with all of the people that I've met and coached and people who mentor me is that it's the feeling of purpose.

It's when you find this thing where you are serving the world; you're doing your thing whether it's teaching yoga, or making cupcakes, or sewing, or doing some kind of online course. When you feel that what you do gets metabolized and adds something to this tapestry, that's a level of happiness that's beyond anything that you can buy or anything that somebody else can give you. Because it's a feeling of service and I think we deeply want to serve, and we are needed. And we need to know that we're needed.

Jaime: I love all of this. I think what's hard is that it's scary and we're also told that we have to make money, or you have to do the things. We're so conditioned that materialism or the relationship with the external circumstances are going to get you what you want. That's one of the premises of the show. It's like, oh, but I'll take the money too. I'll figure it out for myself. I'll get there and then I'll deal with the millionaire myth after I've already gotten there. Instead of going I could totally pull that into right now. Yet we're still on that hamster wheel of trying to achieve those things knowing full well that everybody says that these are all external circumstances, and you can't fix internal stuff with external circumstances. Why and how do you navigate through that with your clients, especially when it comes to the fear of not being good? I mean, there's just a million fears that stop us from doing that one thing.

Cathy: Yeah. I relate to this so much. I feel like I am my client. Who is your client? Your former self. Right? You before you got over the postpartum. Or you before you lost the weight. Or you before you found the vegan cupcake that was the answer to what you were looking for. Right? So, it's you. I had a dream. Right? I wanted to be a singer/songwriter. I wanted to be Taylor Swift. I wanted to be Colbie Caillat. I wanted to be filling up stadiums. My whole life when things would get hard and my parents went through their divorce, and my mom suffered from manic depression and she was suicidal, and we had no money, and the electricity turned off, and it was just one of those tough times, I just dreamed that one day I'd get so far away from where we were. I would be on stage and I would do what I love, which is to sing, and somehow people would see me.

So, I came out to L.A. after college wanting to get a record deal. It wasn't like they were just handing them out on the corner. I got a bunch of day jobs and I tried on different hats like Barbie. There's Action Up Barbie, and Vet Barbie. It was like, well, maybe I'll work in a casting office. Maybe I'll work in a real estate office. But it kept gnawing at me that that's not me. That'd be me being somebody else. But I had a day job and I kept working on the record thing. I kept writing songs and they were mediocre. Then they got better. Then I actually got signed to Interscope. I got a record deal.

I was there actually in the room Lady Gaga was recording Paparazzi. They were like, "What kind of coffee do you want?" I'm like, oh my god! I'm doing this! I'm gonna do this. I wound up getting dropped from the label and I got another day job. I was at that day job and I was like, now, I can't have this little belief that one day somebody would recognize me because I got there and then I got rejected. There is no there there. I have to suck it up. Everybody was like be an adult. Be responsible. Be practical. Get a job. Just get a job. So, I worked at this real estate firm, commercial real estate firm. About a year into it, I was making decent money. I was able to go to sushi whenever I wanted and buy cute jeans and drive a cute car. I was being paid probably like $150,000 or something which I thought was wow! That's so much money!

It was really golden handcuffs. What it did is it convinced me that this is how you do it. You do something that doesn't feel like you, but you make a buck. I walked into the office one day and I saw myself in the reflection of the elevator and I was like, this isn't me. I just burst into tears and I quit. I knew that I had to do something so I asked a question that I really encourage people to ask which is, "Is there any way for me to make money doing something that I love and what would that look like?" Long story short, I started to say isn't there another way that I could be an artist and make money other than like it's all or nothing? It's Beyonce or bust. I started to look for that answer. What you seek is seeking you.

I wound up picking up a magazine and there was an article about licensing music fulfillment TV. I was like what's that? It was talking about how artists like Snow Patrol and Ingrid Michelson licensed songs to Grey's Anatomy and people had licensed songs to movies. I was like I never considered it. What if I really put my sights on that? So, I started to think about that, and I built a career. For 10 years I wrote songs and my songs, me singing. I was on all those shows. Pretty Little Liars and Switched at Birth, and Coca-Cola commercials, McDonalds commercials and I made three times what I made at the real estate firm. I made $300,000, $400,000 a year. Plus, it was really fun.

I started being asked by other people, how the hell did you do that? I became like an evangelist where I would be saying to people at dinner parties, "You know you can do something you love. You know it's not all or nothing. It's not you're Elon Musk or you're gonna have to work at some insurance company. It's like there is another probably 18 million potential paths in between." And so, I started to realize that what I did was, A I was open to another path doing something I love. But something really crucial is when you want a hobby it's one thing. But if you want a business, the difference between a business and a hobby is that you get paid. That means somebody is paying you. That means somebody needs or wants what you're doing.

You have a client which means you need two words. You need radical empathy. It has to be about somebody else because they're paying you. If that's true and we're really built to serve and I said before that's when we are happiest. Then it's like how can I do what I love and solve a problem? What I started to do and get really good at is ask the question. I would call Disney soundtracks, or I would have a meeting with an ad agency doing something for Pepsi. Instead of just pitching music, I would say, "What story are you telling? What do you need? What emotion? What's the character going through? Who's the actor in it? Who's directing it?" Then I would write a song that I love that felt like me but that told the story. It was so easy. It was so easy. I would just get the job over and over again, over and over again. They would license my songs for 50 grand, 80 grand.

I would still own the song. Then songwriters would say you're such a sellout. I would say how am I selling out? I just bought a house. I love what I'm doing. I love the songs I'm writing. Then I would say so Randy Newman is a sellout because he wrote those songs for Toy Story? I think he likes the songs. So, Alan Menken is a sellout because he wrote all those songs for Aladdin and every other Disney? I don't think so. What about Michelangelo who was commissioned to paint the Sistine Chapel? He died with $50 million in his bank account before we add inflation which now it's like $3 billion. Okay? So, he was given a client who had a particular request to paint the depiction of the Bible on this ceiling with a particular kind of paint.

What I'm saying is when you figure out that you don't, It's not I do something I don't like and make money, or I do something I love and a starve. It's how can I solve a problem with the skills and talents that I have? How can I find a client? Who'd be the biggest investor, the best client? That would be the problem I would try to solve. Does that make sense?

Jaime: Oh, a million times yes. How long did it take you though to go from quitting to really feeling like you found that client that you could deliver and serve to? I think the gaps of timing. It sounds amazing for people listening and they're like that's amazing for her! But the time I'm sure wasn't like a week. Right?

Cathy: No. It wasn't a week. It probably took about a year until I made my first. I remember making $58,000 to write a song for a Hasbro commercial. They were like, yeah. Can you write a songs about like friends? I wrote this song called "We're Good Together". We're good together. We're good together. Look at how we shine when we're side by side. Eh, eh, eh. We're good together. I was like, that's 50 grand? Then I licensed that same song again four different times. That one song. That one day in the studio which felt like absolute Disneyland sunshine, I made $200,000. It was ridiculous. That probably took a year. But I have this feeling of expectation that it could happen at any second because I stepped into that possibility. But what I tell people is don't quit and take the leave. I tell people create a side hustle and build the bridge. Because it would have been easier for me had I done that. I see that now.

By the way, I did wind up making $300,000, $400,000 a year writing music. However, I then wound up making $1 million, $2 million, $5 million a year. All of those projects were side hustles to my then very busy music career. I've learned and seen in my own life that the side hustle is brilliant. So, here I was doing this music thing and then what happened? "Hey, Cath. I'm a songwriter. How did you do that? How did you do that? How did you do that?" I was like, I don't teach that. I write music. I was very cool doing my thing. I was in Billboard magazine, Variety magazine. It happens to be right here because I just did it. Like when I say I was in Billboard, I mean it wasn't like a mention. It was like a full-page feature because I was crushing it. Right? I just happen to have this on my desk but there I am. Okay.

The point is, I was not available to do anything else. That's actually a problem because people were saying I wanna know how you did that. Which meant that the universe was giving me a new opportunity and I didn't see it as any opportunity. I didn't want to be a teacher. I wanted to be an artist. Then a friend of mine, Well, she wasn't. She was a stranger. She became a friend. I was on somebody's podcast who had a music podcast and we were talking about making a living as a musician. I was talking about what I do and I'm so proud of it. I'm so excited about it. I'm so into it. I got an email from a woman who went to music school and she said, "Would you teach a class on it and would you teach a class online?" I'm like no. Absolutely not. I don't even know what an online class is. I don't know Amy Porterfield. I don't know podcast. I'm an artist. I live in L.A. I go to a studio. I play a piano and that's it.

And she said, "Well, it's a huge opportunity for you because so many people are gonna wanna know how you did that." I decided why am I resisting this so much? You know? It kept coming up over and over again, over and over again, over years! I was like, you know what? I'll do it. On the side, I was pregnant with my third daughter. I was like I'll do it before she's born. I'll create some kind of a program. I started by teaching a class in my living room to 10 artists to see what they needed. Again, radical empathy. What questions would you have? They were soaking it up. They were eating out of the palm of my hand. I was like okay. I decided to put this class online. It was called "Six Figure Songwriting".

It was a massive success and it made millions. Millions! I was like, oh my god. This is insane! What I made with each song. For every song I wrote, for every client I had, there was a line around the block of people who wanted to know how I got the client and how I wrote the song. Then that turned into maybe I should teach people how to do what they love. It could be anything. I could apply what I did with music, which is pretty competitive. You could apply that any scenario. How to build a bakery. How to get fans. How to Anything! So, it's about being resourceful. The show blew up and now I teach a class called ?Made to Do This? which is very, very successful and very, very fun. I teach people how to find their calling and in 12 weeks go from that idea to income in 12 weeks.

Jaime: So many questions. Okay. When it comes to the resisting part, because you said you resisted for years which is always interesting when it's like it kept banging on my door. I'm like where did that resistance come from? Did you feel like it was a time thing or a you not listening to your intuition? Tell me about how you figured that piece out.

Cathy: It was ego. It was like I'm an artist so I'm very precious about that. I can't be a teacher. That feels so dorky. I don't do that. What a missed opportunity! Because, again, going back to what we started with, we get the most fulfillment from service. So, how do you know where you're most needed? Right? That's our job is to look for where we can serve. What are the opportunities? It's not about me. It's about the world, right? It's about the world. I said, if all of these songwriters wanna learn this ? And I would by the way, at the time I was telling my friends how to do it for free anyway. I was like let me get over myself. Let me get over myself! I realized I loved teaching because I could pour into these artists who had these longing eyes who were looking at me like I have a soul. I have talent. If you can't help me, I'm gonna give up on my dream forever.

It was like, no, no, no. No! I can help you. I remember one of our first students, John Clineville, he calls me, and he says, "You won't believe it! I got a song in a Starbucks commercial." About four months before in the middle of the class he's like I have to give up. I can't do this. I said you will not give up and you will do this and do what I said. Do it again. You are gonna stick in it! Now, he hasn't worked a day job in five, six years. He's been making all of his money playing music, doing music. So, I stuck in it and I'm so glad I got over myself. Then you know what happened is the flood gates just opened and I let go of what my identity had to look like. Then I did the next thing. I just kept saying yes.

The next thing was this idea to start a podcast. I was like I don't know the how. I don't know anything about podcasting. I'll start it. We'll see what happens. Just follow the breadcrumbs. That podcast led to a whole lot. Then I go offered a book deal. Then I started collaborating with other podcasters and meeting people. Then I built this huge audience. I was like, you know what? They need a class, so I iterated a few times. First, I tried a podcasting class. I was like, people aren't coming to me to learn how to podcast, but I am pretty good at it. Then I tried a business accelerator. Then I was like, no. My people wanna know what they're made to do and how to make an impact so that's what I teach.

Jaime: I love the reiteration process there too because it seems like finding your purpose, quote unquote, can be very right or wrong based on people's opinion. Like this feels right or this doesn't feel right. How do you help people find the thing that they really are their purpose, quote unquote?

Cathy: Yeah. I mean, I think part of it is we have to take it off a pedestal because the clarity follows the action. I don't think you're gonna find your purpose with a capital P by sitting and thinking your way to it. You have to try it on. Right? I mean, here I am now in love with what I get to do, making the kind of money of that it's like silly. I can't believe how much comes in and I can't believe how much of an impact I get to make. There's no way I could tell you, oh yeah. This I knew when I was a kid, I wanted to be a podcaster and teach online courses. That didn't even exist! So, what does it mean, purpose? Your purpose is to make an impact. How you're gonna do that? You take a guess. I would say start with a thing that's easiest to start. Start with a thing you're curious about.

Start with a thing you think somebody needs and go all in. Look how many times my career has changed. I went from songwriting, to teaching songwriting, to starting a podcast, to now helping people find their passion projects and I love it. I don't know where it's leading next.

Jaime: And that's total cool too, also. That's the thing. Not knowing is also okay and fun too. I remember when I quit my day. I was like, but if I just knew what it was, I could go do it! I felt like this it has to be something really good and perfect and blah, blah, blah, which of course didn't allow me to take very much action either. So, I was a little stuck in a little box. What do you tactically tell people to go to try some of this, especially if they already have a day job and they have maybe two hours a week trying to figure this stuff out?

Cathy: Well, the very, very first most important thing that everybody skips over and doesn't tend to do, unless they have a successful business. If you have a successful business you do this and you do it again, and again, and again, and again. You have to validate what you're doing. You have to get a proof of concept. Instead of worrying about getting 50,000 followers on day one, I would say like is there one follower. Is there one person? A business is about finding a person and picking one of the problems that they have and figuring out a way to relieve that tension. So, I'm gonna make better shoes. I'm going to create a home organizing service to help moms with their clutter. I'm going to help couples to have better date nights.

You pick a person, pick a problem. Now, in order to validate that, you've gotta get as close to that person who has that problem as possible and test it and come up with a beta cupcake and be like it's gluten free and it's vegan. How does it taste? Oh! I'll make a different one. Once you get one, two, three people to try this organizing service, to try this date night in a box and you get their feedback, you'll make some tweaks. You'll make some changes. Once they are liking it, now you can start to see what's the market value. What might they pay for it? See what happens. Now you can grow it. Now you can start to scale that business. But that part is the unsexy part that is so actually easy if we're available to be messy and we're available to get the feedback.

I think people are so... We have so much shame that it's like I couldn't bear hearing from someone that it's not great. What if they don't like it? Instead of maybe having a little rejection where somebody gives you some feedback, you'll just reject yourself and deal with 40 years of regret. Right? That doesn't make sense.

Jaime: Yeah. Humans are smart! Yeah. I'm just so grateful that you say that because what I think unfortunately, we're told is you go after fans first. You build this thing and then you figure out what will happen. But you can build a whole bunch of random people that have totally different problems and then try to sell something to them and start to try and figure it out and it can be hard, like really hard. Whereas, when you just talk to somebody and say what do you want? It's scary! Don't get me wrong. It's totally scary and it's a skill set that maybe people don't have. And you're not gonna die! Right? So, when you start having people go through this path, what are some of the things that pop up in their head for resistance or issues or excuses as to why they can't do what you're suggesting?

Cathy: I mean, the biggest thing is they're afraid to be on the hook. They don't think that they're enough. They don't think they're gonna be able to fulfill the promise so they don't wanna say that they can charge for this bracelet or even offer you a bracelet because they undervalue themselves. We diminish ourselves. It's really false humility. It's not actual, Like what we're missing... We believe this hologram, this illusion that we're all separate and that we're all physical and that we're all individually isolating little entities in our own little vortex. We're not. We're all part of the same one collective. So, when somebody rises and grows and lifts and brings in energy, or money, or abundance, or more joy, the world around them gets filled with more joy. Right? Their family, the people that they interact with that day.

So, our self-realization is the greatest gift we give the world because we are one collective. The rising tide lifts all the ships. Right? So, Howard Schultz coming out of public housing and having the courage to open that shop, that Starbucks and then creating 34,000 Starbucks, he's created hundreds of thousands of jobs and given people healthcare. Then paved the way for other entrepreneurs and invested and been philanthropic. It's like the rising tide rises the boat. When we say who am I to do this, that's the problem. And who are you to do this? Who are you not to do it, right?

I believe that what's really deep and true is that there's only one singularity in the world. There's one energy. It's like source. It's god. It's whatever you wanna call it but it's in you. From that part of you, it's like what would love do. Love would open its heart and share themselves and stop beating yourself up and criticizing yourself. Just make a thing and put it in the world. Think to yourself this is my gift. Everybody has a different gift. Everybody is born with a different bag of tricks. If my gift is writing, if my gift is communication, if my gift is beauty, if my gift is agriculture and I don't do it, then it never got done. I say to my students it's like a puzzle and there's nothing more frustrating than finishing a puzzle and there's just one piece missing. It's like where is that piece? Is it under the couch? Is it in the bedroom? That's what the world is like when you don't do your work.

So, I think it just takes really 20 seconds of insane courage. Take some bold action. Once you get into action, I always say to people, the truth is that what happens from what you're trying to do is not your job anyway. Like the results or whether this thing is gonna go or not, or this guy is gonna like you back, or you're gonna get featured. It's like that's all god's job. That's the universe's job. Our job is to know the next move we're supposed to make. For some reason I think I was supposed to text this person back and say I'm sorry. For some reason I think I'm supposed to post this blog. For some reason I think I'm supposed to start this business. Yeah. That's your personal development journey. And you rising up to go ahead and do that next step, you're gonna break through your limiting belief of whatever that edge is. That ultimately is satisfying.

Even if you lose, the fact that you showed up for this thing and then the momentum that comes from that is massive.

Jaime: How do you navigate from that inspired action place? Especially, there's stuff in business that not everybody likes to do. So, even if you love the songwriting and stuff like that, there might be paperwork or something that you don't like also. So, how do you navigate inspired action which is sort of this leading by the gut versus all of the other to do stuff that you have to have on your list?

Cathy: Because, again, there is a very big difference between a hobby and a business. Like a hobby really is not about business. It's really not. If it's a business, then it is about other people and we can't expect that if we don't show up every day and if we're not visible every day and if we're not clearly making the offer every day, then the business is shut down. Like imagine a shop on main street and they're only open once every six months for two days. That's not about other people then. That's about their fear. That's about they don't wanna do the work. They don't wanna put in the time to be consistent. It's about other people. It's not about us.

So, if it's a business then somebody is paying you which means you've gotta show up every day. Then you've gotta think to yourself, I've gotta make emotional deposits. Why would I go right to a sale? Why would I try to make the offer before I've given somebody a taste of what this is or built trust with this person? That takes consistently showing up and serving your person and getting to know them and them getting to know you. Then when you have the offer, it's like oh, I'm glad you do because that is what I want from you. You know?

I bout $1700 of jewelry this morning from this artist who I love. I wasn't mad at her for charging for the jewelry. I'm happy that it exists. I realize that my kids take all my stuff and I go live so often, and I don't have a pair of earrings because my kids literally. I have three daughters and they take everything. I was like, I'm gonna buy myself six pairs of earrings that I love and just have them, one for every day of the week. Treat myself. I was like, Cathy, you're making millions of dollars a year. You can't just have that?

So, it's like but how do I know about that artist? Because she shows up in my feed. Because she's consistent. Because she's built a brand. Because she has the guts to charge $400 for a pair of earrings because it's not about low price. It's about high value. Right? Like low price or not showing up. This is all the stuff of really not serving. If you're really serving someone, then it's not about the price. It's about the promise. There are people all day long who will choose to go to Whole Foods over their regular grocery store because they'd rather pay more for the higher value. But then the job of Whole Foods is to say we're committed to the value. We're not selling price. We're selling the value. The value is this price. It's not lower.

But then there are people who go, cool. I don't care what that cost is because I want the value that you're selling. Do you see what I'm saying? It's like, It's about the client and so we definitely need to do those things because it's not about me. Unless we're talking about doing a hobby and then we're not talking about millions of dollars or being a millionaire. We're just talking about playing and exploring which is also nice but that has nothing to do with money.

Jaime: Where's the line of... Because I love what you're saying, especially having kids and doing all of the things. Right? Because there is a lot of personal stuff and professional stuff, especially when you have your own business. When you start navigating through what you have to do today, this week, along with but I don't necessarily like everything that I'm doing, do you just put on a happy face? Do you hire an employee that does like it? How do you when you start to grow bigger with the same thoughts that you have, how do we sort of stay in that in tune inspired action as much as humanly possible?

Cathy: What's interesting, and I'm being totally genuine with you, I love every single part of it. I think I love every single part of it because the business I built is a business that comes from the soul of my soul. So, there's not a part of it. I like posting on Instagram. I like talking to the clients. I like coming up with the offers. I love selling the offer. I love creating the launches. I love being a part of a launch. I love working with my team. Even when that's hard and I don't know exactly how to navigate something, I like to grow from that. Which part would somebody maybe not like? I'm being honest with you. Help me understand what people might go I hate that part.

Jaime: Well, I have a lot of clients that are more visionary or creative type that are like, oh, nitty gritty details? Dealing with 100 emails that I'm getting not necessarily from their amazing clients but random pitches and... Do you know what I mean? Like a lot of project management and the stuff that usually isn't their strength.

Cathy: Once you get to a place, I would say when you're starting out you should answer those emails yourself and create intimacy. Because the equal sign next to sales is intimacy. If you wanna make literally a million, two million, three million, five million, or $20 million, it's not how many people are on your list. It's how deep the connection goes. That's, I would say you should enjoy that process. But if it's like now I've grown my business and I don't get a hundred emails. I get a thousand emails. So, yes. You absolutely need to have a team in order to scale your business. I do have a team. I couldn't? That's part of it. Right? That's part of the growth is having more people to support all of those people.

If your question is like do you need to have a team, well, to be a millionaire you for sure need to have a team. But I love running a team. And then you need to love running a team even if that's hard. You need to find the growth in that. You shouldn't be doing all of the things. That's more of a question of like at a certain point you do need a team.

Jaime: I completely agree. When it comes to engagement, because you're really good at engagement, as it gets bigger, and bigger, and bigger, and there is so much of you to go around, how do you really create that engagement where they feel like they know you even though you might not necessarily text them personally?

Cathy: Because it's an energetic vibration. Where energy goes, attention flows. If you're really there, they're gonna know you're there. Nobody writes copy for me. Nobody posts for me. It's me every day and it's obvious because you can tell when something is the truth. You can just tell. You can tell when it's like, "Hey, sis! Just sliding in?" It sounds like.. It sounds like someone told their copywriter this is how I would normally say something and make it sound. There's a truth to what's true so you can just feel that is what's so and they're not there. That's a problem.

Jaime: Did you always like writing and copywriting?

Cathy: Well, to me, it's just be yourself. It's like, no. I wasn't a great student in high school and I'm not a great, I don't have great grammar. But I know how to open my heart. This is what I'm saying. It's like when they zig, you've gotta zag. The world is so filled with noise. When somebody is gonna engage with you, it's because you are speaking from your soul. You're being authentic. You're really being vulnerable and you're being... When people are scrolling, they say that the research they're done shows that what people click on, it's not about how famous the person's posts or if there's a celebrity in it. It's not about how informative it is. It's how much the post reflects what the person is feeling.

So, it's like do you really know your audience? If your audience is you, then talk them and be honest with them. And then engage. Ask them a question and then DM them. Then comment back to them. Care. Social media is about being social. It's amazing how many people are on social media but they're like, I don't comment. I don't engage. I just hope it grows. It's like, but it grows because it's growing. Those little deposits every day, you comment on what five people say and you really say, "Say more about that." Then you really care. You don't have to do it with every person but do it a little bit every day and DM a few people. Interact with people. When you post something, then don't just post it. Assume everyone's busy.

So, then two hours after you post it, put it in your stories and swipe up to it. Then an hour after that put another thing in your stories. Ask a question. Do you agree with what I'm saying? Have them interact with it. Have them do a poll. It's all about what they're feeling, what they're thinking. I just like doing that. I think it's fun. I like people. I think you, I think you have to be interested in caring about people, probably.

Jaime: That's the distinction. I mean, it sounds so duh but that's the distinction that we don't see a lot online. Like actually being a human and actually caring about the other person on the end of whatever that screen is sounds like you actually being able to see the other person. At the beginning you were saying I didn't feel seen. It sounds like you're seeing other people and where they are and match that.

Cathy: Yeah. We can all do that. That's the thing. We have so much of this perfectionism or like in order for me to go online I have to look like this or sound like this. No. It's the opposite. It's like if you can just take away the shame and just be surrendered to be yourself, you'll know what to say. When have you had talkers block and you don't know what to say? But writer's block comes. What is writer's block? Writer's block is, oh, my god. I have to wear this hat right now and say it so perfectly. No, you don't.

Jaime: I love that. Where is the... The connection point is what it sounds like you've got. You've got this amazing connection point with these people because you know them so well because you actually care, and you ask questions about what they care about is what it sounds like. But when it comes to how much time and effort and energy you pour into that; how do you manage that? Because you have a huge audience. They probably email you a bazillion times. You probably don't have the chance to connect like you used to when you had a much smaller audience. How do you manage all of that?

Cathy: Well, you don't need to. At a certain point, you don't need to answer every single question because most of those questions are the same question. So, you can just talk to your audience and you can send like a little video. Sometimes I'll just pick up my phone and with my hair messy I'll just say, I was just thinking this. Is this on your heart today? And send it to everyone or talk about it in an Instagram post. What I'm doing is I'm listening. You listen enough that you start to get a sense of what the collective needs and then you post about it. You share about it. Then they go, oh, she is listening. Or I'll do a lot of polls and Google forms because I wanna know what's your pain point. What are you struggling with? How can I serve you?

But you don't have to write back to every single person. But they should get a reply. That's where your team can help you at a certain point.

Jaime: Yep. I appreciate the fact that you're not like, and then I learned this new strategy from this thing! You're like, well, I just figure out what they want and then I just give it to them. It's not rocket science is what it sounds like.

Cathy: It's not.

Jaime: Where's the line of vulnerability though too? Especially you're saying being authentic and sort of coming out from what your heart feels like. Do you ever feel like you've gone too vulnerable or people won't trust you because you went too far?

Cathy: I mean, there have been moments where I'm like, wow. Should I really share this? You know? But I think people receive it. I really do. I think people are grateful. I went through a really sad loss of a pregnancy this past summer where it wasn't even a miscarriage. The baby was terminally ill, so I had to terminate the pregnancy. It was our first boy. It was amazing because every other pregnancy I'd had came through many rounds of fertility treatment. Then I got pregnant naturally and it was a boy, and it was exciting! Then he was diagnosed with trisomy 18 which is a very most of the time terminal and when it's not terminal it's very serious and often kids live with very severe issues. So, it was recommended to me by three specialists that I terminate the pregnancy.

I decided very last minute I decided to share about it. I thought, you know what? I'll record this and I may not post. I may not publish this podcast. Then I shared it and I was very vulnerable, and I took a chance. I thought people might judge me or people might say she thinks that's sad, I've been through so much worse. A million reasons why I thought don't share it. People were so unbelievably kind and so moved by it. They were like, hearing you cry and share the messiness of just being a person, it reminded me of this thing I've been through. Or nobody ever says this but...

So, at the end of the day, you're never ever gonna be somebody that everybody likes. It's impossible. You know, not everybody likes chocolate. Some people like vanilla. Some people hate Seinfeld. Okay. Fine. Some people hate Paul Simon. Some people don't like the ocean. They hate the sand. They like the mountains. It's like, you could be perfect. You could be this beautiful peach and it's just like, oh, I hate peaches. Okay. So, it's like I think we have to just trust your gut. Do your best to serve and then if people fall away it's like okay, then let them go. Why do you need to please everybody?

Jaime: That was... Thank you for sharing that. I really appreciate it too. Especially in the day and age that we are at right now with 2020, sharing the humanness because we're all going through crap even if you're amazing.

Cathy: Such a year.

Jaime: It's just been, It's rocky. Being a human is rocky anyway which we don't like to admit to anyway! So, I just really appreciate the vulnerability and you being able to figure if you're gonna cross the line or not and then having it be a gift for some many, I'm sure, for so many other people that were listening to it too. I know, we have to start wrapping up. I have a million other questions but what is one action listeners can take this week? We know the money is not the thing, but we still want the money. So, what is one action listeners can take this week to help move them forward towards their goal a million?

Cathy: Well, I would say the money is the thing. I really disagree. I love money. Money is amazing! It's energy. The money is the thing. Money is energy. We have so much shame around it. Like even, I would ask you, why do you say it that way?

Jaime: Well, my site is about life first and then money. I went money without being happy first because I thought that was the thing. Then I shifted it. So, to me, I also I wrote my book. I love money also. I think it's great. I think it's only great when you're doing the things that you actually enjoy in life. So, that's the reason.

Cathy: Well, it's interesting. I'm glad I asked you that. It's interesting. To me, I think we're talking about it differently, but I know exactly what you mean.

Jaime: Tell me more.

Cathy: But the money wasn't what the problem was. It was...

Jaime: No. Yeah.

Cathy: It's kind of like... Because it's like it's not the water, it's how you use the water. Nobody says that. Money is a resource, right?

Jaime: Yes.

Cathy: So, it's I just think it's dangerous in some ways to say money is not the thing because there's so much crap people have around the money story. When that story you just told had nothing to do with money not being the thing. It was just you not being maybe in alignment with your thing. Right? Was it really about money?

Jaime: The reason why I gave that connotation is because it seems like what you're saying, correct me if I'm wrong, is that finding your joy and finding your purpose, the money will come anyway. So, you can totally go after the money when it comes to that premise. But the premise about going after money for money's sake for the safety that you think it will bring no matter what the crap is that you have to do in order to get it, that's the unaligned piece that I don't agree with because I did that and that sucked.

Cathy: Okay. Of course! That's of course. That to me Yeah. Again, I feel like that's not about money. That's about looking for something to fill us up and not being ourselves.

Jaime: The reason that I said it this way is because I know the question that I have, which I love, I've been 480 something interviews, right? The very, very beginning when I used to ask the question it was like people want the money. Who cares how it comes? Who cares what we have to contort ourselves into? It was about the money, quote unquote. So, I didn't want it to be about... I mean, I know that's not your premise. I'm assuming it's not your premise that it's like go ahead, contort yourself. Do a bunch of crap you hate, and the money will come. That's great. No. The money is good either way, right? But the better, easier, more fun, more purpose-driven way is to serve and to do the things that you want. Is that what you're saying?

Cathy: Yeah. I think it's like I go so deep with it that I don't think about... There's no part of me that would ever think that water, or electricity, or sunshine, or money, any resource would be the thing.

Jaime: Okay.

Cathy: So, it's hard to get ? To me, they're all the exact same.

Jaime: But don't you feel like it was? I agree but don't you think when you were at your day job money was the thing that you were supposed to get so that way you could be safe? Or whatever the reasoning was behind it.

Cathy: Was I doing it, Yeah. But it wasn't, I still wasn't looking at it. I guess there's times where people are really looking for love and they think it's sex so they just have a lot of sex, right?

Jaime: Yep.

Cathy: And they don't get what they want. That is, I guess one way people can approach money too, right? But I don't really think that's the way most people approach money. I really don't. I think most people the reason they don't have money is not because they're approaching it like I've gotta have it. It's I don't think I am worthy of it and I don't think it exists. I think most people come from a scarcity mindset and they also have a lot of shame around having money. When literally I don't even think about the money. It's like, really, it's like literally there is sunshine and oxygen. It's like me saying, well, it's not really about the oxygen. But I would want plenty of oxygen and I don't feel guilty about that. It's amazing to have plenty of oxygen because then I don't have to decide which breath I'm gonna use to take a shower or which breath I'm gonna use to, Right?

Jaime: Yeah.

Cathy: We want plenty of it. So, it's literally just the, It's all a story. Money is literally paper. It doesn't do anything. It's just a resource. So, anyway, it's fascinating to me the whole conversation around money. We're all so worthy of having as much oxygen and as much money and it's all available. The world is so abundant so there's tons of sunlight and tons of oxygen and tons of energy and tons of money. Yeah. I just have a lot to say around just open your heart and allow yourself to truly receive, truly receive. Because why do people really want money? They want the freedom that it brings. They want the abundance. They want the feeling of expansion. So, if you really feel that feeling of expansion right now, you don't need money to give you that feeling. Then when you feel that feeling, you get all of those resources we just talked about. Money, oxygen, love, right? You'll get it all. Like attracts like. You'll vibrate there.

It's a very... All these words have been so contorted that it's just, it's interesting. One person says money and means...

Jaime: Yep. Perception.

Cathy: There's a grip. There's a thing. There's a charge. There's a whatever. It's interesting. I really had to ask you because it's so not a part of my, I don't...

Jaime: It's really cool though to see your interpretation and be like, wait. Does not compute. What are you? Again, most... My dad was a musician, a failed musician, that had to get a day job that he absolutely hated for his entire life until he retired. Didn't want to listen to me about anything either. He's my dad. Right? But pissed off at the world because of a lot of it too because he needed to have money and held ? Again, it could be lack or it could be whatever those pieces are but I do feel like the perspective that people have make a huge difference. We can totally see what your perspective is, which I also think is accurate. But each person has sort of their own perception and how that goes. It's just interesting.

Cathy: Yeah. I just feel like if people are starving artists, they do have an interesting, If you're suffering from not having money, there's something about you that doesn't want money, that thinks money is evil or that there's shame around it or doesn't think that you should have it. Or puts it on a pedestal when literally like it's just a resource to help you do your life. That's why I don't even make it a thing. I don't even wanna talk about it. It's not this. It's not that thing. It's like, why would I even call that out? Do you know what I mean? It's all neutral. It's like, Okay. So, anyways.

Jaime: The perception that I was leaning into was that some people think that money has to come from something that they do not enjoy in order to have it. That's one perception.

Cathy: Right. And that's, as I kind of outlined...

Jaime: But that's not true!

Cathy: Yeah. Money is everywhere. Money is literally a story we made up. We put it on paper. We used to use trading, right? We used to take like a can of beans for this little whatever. We would trade things at port. Then we were like, oh, it's just easier. Instead of trading a thing that's matching in value, I'll put a value on a piece of paper.

Jaime: Yep.

Cathy: The way we get it is by giving value. When we don't believe that we have value, we don't trade for that value. To me, money is a gift certificate of appreciation of this is the value that that has. That's why I just don't, To me, when I see money, I see empathy. I see that person figured out something someone needed and got back all of that equal to the value that they gave.

Jaime: The serving part which is the whole point. Right. Because when you can link those two, and I think that's a thing that you've highlighted so well, when you link those two then you get both. Then you get the fun in serving...

Cathy: It doesn't work the... It never works the other way. It just doesn't. Like I don't know any example of someone who's not serving, who's not... Unless they're literally stealing and then it doesn't work anyway because then their soul, usually a lot of darkness covers and finds their life if they're stealing. Otherwise, whether you bought a cellphone, or a candle, or a car, or a guitar lesson, or you stayed at a hotel, to the extent you gave money is because you got value back that matched that. Unless the person stole which then they wind up in prison. To me, it's all an empathy story. To me, it's all a constant flow of giving and receiving and giving and receiving just value. To make money even a thing, it's not about it but it is about it. It's like we're not really getting what it is. It's literally handing somebody a certificate of value in exchange for the value that that person gave. That's literally what it is.

Jaime: Yeah. A resource.

Cathy: Right.

Jaime: I love this last question because I usually get a lot of answers, but I've never gone down this tangent with this question ever which I absolutely love. Where do we find your podcast? Where do we find your book?

Cathy: You can find it wherever you listen to podcasts. It's called Don't Keep Your Day Job. We just had another fellow text in. Matthew McConaughey was just on.

Jaime: That's awesome.

Cathy: He was so good, so fun. Yeah. Then you can find me on Instagram @cathy.heller and just wherever, wherever you want to find, you'll find it. But keep doing what you're doing.

Jaime: Thanks so much for coming on the show today. I really appreciate it.

Cathy: Thank you!

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