How Mike McDerment turned Freshbooks from the basement into a 7 figure company

Co-founder and CEO of FreshBooks – Mike McDerment

Today’s guest joining us on the show is the founder of Freshbooks, which is the world’s #1 accounting software in cloud for self-employed professionals. Built-in 2003, Mike spent 3.5 years growing FreshBooks from his parents? basement.

Since then, over 10 million people have used FreshBooks to save time billing, and collect billions of dollars. Mike is also an author and wrote the book, “Breaking the Time Barrier,” which is a guide to using value-based pricing to unlock your true earning potential which has been downloaded more than 250k times.

Episode Highlights:

• How Freshbooks evolved from a little software company to a million-dollar company (pivotal moments of each phase)
• How ‘letting go’ can be a huge turning point in your life!
• The shocking truth about hiring your dream team
• Why every problem a people problem, and every solution a people solution.

Mike’s Website:

FreshBooks.com

Transcript: Download

Video Transcription provided by GMR Transcription Services.

Jaime Masters:	Welcome to Eventual Millionaire. I?m Jaime Masters and today on the show we have the amazing Mike McDerment of FreshBooks. He also wrote the book, Breaking the Time Barrier and we?ve already been chatting. I like you already. Thanks so much for coming on the show today.

Mike McDerment:	Thanks for having me, Jaime.

Jaime Masters:	It?s always rule No. 1, make the host actually like you first and that way I?ll be really, really nice.

Mike McDerment:	It?s all downhill from here. Here?s hoping. As I like to say, I still got lots of time to mess it up though. I always remind myself that every day. Lots of time to mess it up. 

Jaime Masters:	Good. I can?t wait to see this train wreck. No, I?m kidding. So, tell me a little bit, just the origin story of what you?ve got because I know you started Fresh Books in 2003, and it?s a huge company now. But you were starting as a design type firm beforehand so give me a little of that snapshot.

Mike McDerment:	That?s right. So, I left school in fourth year. I started two businesses. One of them was an event business. To promote it each year I ended up teaching myself how to build websites. Funnily enough, one of the vendors for that which was my caterer needed a website. So, I built a website for him and then all of a sudden I had another client and all of a sudden I was in business. And so I was building websites for people. I sort of started out as just kind of building websites but pretty early on realized what?s the point in having one unless it brings you business.

	And so, I took an interest in marketing and internet marketing and I kind of built up a practice of we?ll design and deliver this thing but we?ll make sure it brings you traffic. And then inside that marketing thing, I went on a journey that said it?s great that you have traffic, but if it?s not the traffic you want, who cares? And then once you get the traffic that you want, the next step was like okay, well if it doesn?t do what you want, then it doesn?t matter. So, I built up this discipline around what I call conversion consulting and it was helping people basically take existing traffic or find new traffic and generate more business from it.

	That?s the agency I was running and then one day I was preparing to send something to a client; an invoice. I was using Word and Excel to build my clients and I accidentally saved over a prior invoice, lost the information, and said, ?That?s it. I?ve had enough. There?s got to be a better way to do this.? And so I built a simple way to bill my clients online.

	They seemed to like it. I kind of ran it as a side project. It was like a web thing and you?re getting a long version today so please forgive me. But that was back some time ago now as you say and since then, over 20 million people have used our software. We?re a few hundred people cranking away here in mostly Toronto, Canada but we?ve got a couple of folks elsewhere. And yeah, we?re proudly a very service-based company. I think that comes from our service roots so you can get a real live competent person on the phone when you phone us.

	What the offering is is ridiculously easy to use invoicing and accounting software built exclusively for folks who send invoices available on mobile and web. As I like to say, if you invoice, you need FreshBooks. So, pardon the ?

Jaime Masters:	 So, go buy. Okay, was that good? 

Mike McDerment:	That works for me. It works for me. 

Jaime Masters:	Well, it?s insane to think about back in the day you were doing conversion consulting because that was early 2000?s; that was before conversion consulting was cool. Now, everybody knows about it but that was almost 20 years ago. Right? 

Mike McDerment:	Yeah. I think maybe I have just a little bit of a pioneering nose that leads me into places because we were also ? now we?re a cloud-based invoicing and accounting software. We were cloud before cloud. When I started working on this, there was no such thing as the cloud yet. It was the internet and applications like ours were called different things. So yeah, it?s been quite a journey. The next thing; we?ll see. But it?s been a lot of fun getting in early in things.

Jaime Masters:	 Did you know that it was going to be successful? I know it was sort of a side project, but did you either know that you were going to be hugely successful or was this a trip that you did not know you were going down?

Mike McDerment:	I think it?s more in the latter. I think there was a lot of interest in doing the work. I think it was more passion and intrigue and problem-solving and sort of fulfillment that kind of kept it all going in the early years. I think there was a sense it could be big but there was no reason to believe it was going to be and that persisted for a long time by the way. But yeah, I think it was much more of a, ?Hey, I really like what I?m doing.? 

	I had to learn so many things. Being a services business is very different than running a product company and I had never worked in a product company so it was everything from scratch.

Jaime Masters:	Well, I guess that?s sort of my point. It?s going, ?Oh, I have this skill set in conversion and design? and back then ? I did web design in 2000. It was like an unchartered territory already at that time. So, you have all this expertise and then you decide to go completely the opposite direction in a product that was brand new. Don?t get me wrong. Everybody was talking about cool stuff or products back in the day and getting funded. But what was that like for that trajectory? 

Mike McDerment:	Well, in fairness, in 2003, they were definitely not.

Jaime Masters:	Oh, good point. Right after the crash?

Mike McDerment:	I was that crater of ? yeah, yeah. Before things started getting interesting again. But I would say I was pretty ignorant about other than some headlines in the newspapers; I was relatively ignorant about startup culture and technology and certainly investment and all that kind of stuff. I was just working on a thing I enjoyed. So, I don?t know if that answers your question. I feel like I left one part out.

Jaime Masters:	That?s okay. I?ll keep walking. So, do you have a degree in software? How did you start learning these pieces because that?s a whole separate thing to learn?

Mike McDerment:	Yeah. So, in undergrad and even in high school, I took one computer programming course in high school. Frankly, I didn?t love it. I wasn?t great at it. I did love Excel which we learned in there, Quattro at the time. Anyways, undergrad, what I did was I actually studied business and commerce. Very good program. And I took computer science electives and English electives so it was just a couple of courses. Again, I?ve never been a great programmer but I think it got some of the concepts there. The real turning point for me was I was building websites for people.

	I taught myself how to do that. That was just HTML and cms. I did a three-month program where I learned how to program and that?s when I started hacking. That?s when I started building, learned about databases. It was more like a college course, almost like a certificate after undergrad. A very different style of education but very practical. I liked it a lot and then I was sort of had a little bit of knowledge and able to play with things. 

Jaime Masters:	So, I?m a super geek. I have a degree in computers too so I?m asking about that is always interesting to me because usually, we don?t start out as business owner. So it?s cool that you actually have a business degree. I want to know about the evolution of you from brand new, little software company to a hundred employees. A lot of things must have changed both internally and externally for you to have achieved this much. 

Mike McDerment:	Yeah. Geez, where to start? So, I have this talk I really like to give about the problems of scaling companies from zero to one and then one to four and then four to ten and then 20 and then 40 and then 80 and then 150 and then sort of 250 plus. There are all different organizational breaking points and different challenges and so I think one thing that?s been consistent throughout all that is I have had to massively contort and change myself, trying to figure out how to lead at different stages. Hiring is so hard and those first people you?re guessing at what matters.

	And I would say in the early days, loyalty and fit are crazy because you?re going on an adventure. As you get further along, you can get into ? fit still matters but you get into more the expertise and how to pattern recognize that especially once you start hiring executives. So, I mean there are countless lessons that I continue to work on that are fanatically running through all those periods.

Jaime Masters:	I love the period?s sides of things because when somebody?s in it, they?re like, ?Oh, this is so new and crazy? and then you get going somewhere else and you it?s never ending I guess as far as the evolution of you as a business owner, right? So, tell me about some of the pivotal moments. Maybe if you can break it down one to four and then four to ten and sort of break some of those pieces down on some learnings on that? Just because the people that are listening are going through that right now and they?ll be like, ?Oh, he made it through and he?s still alive so that?s good.? 

Mike McDerment:	So, one to four is fun. Everyone?s in the same room. Everyone?s on the same stuff. Communication overhead is super low. People are probably a little more following the leader just whoever that may be in the room. And so that?s fun. You?re just focused on getting stuff done, pleasing clients, what have you. You get to 10 and certainly 20; you?re starting to have your first managers in there which is a weird thing. Having never worked anywhere, I didn?t know what a manager is/was/ or did. I?m not sure I had any of the talents and skills associated with that so that was like, ?Oh, how do I even hire one of these? What happens to the structure of these teams??

Jaime Masters:	Wait, tell me more about that. Because I see a lot of people struggling with this especially entrepreneur types that never worked for anyone else and aren?t great at managing and aren?t necessarily great leaders at that point. So, how did you learn some of those pieces and how to hire that?

Mike McDerment:	So, I think one of the things I think we solved for values, fit, and intent and we did a good job kind of putting ourselves out there and sort of having some community that we developed. So we came across people eventually who were a fit. We wouldn?t make the move unless we had some confidence meaning I don?t think it?s something to take lightly. If you know you don?t know; collect more data. And so whether that?s interview more people or we surrounded ourselves with advisors and I remember hiring our first sort of technical manager and we had no clue and he introduced us to people who used to work for him who were technical because he wasn?t.

	And so we just leaned on people to make decisions along the way and help us ramp up our understanding curve if you will.

Jaime Masters:	How did you learn to trust ? so you said you have this degree of confidence and you get better of course as you go forward, but how do you trust that person? Because if he was crappy and he started introducing you to all these other crappy people, you could have gone a totally different way, right?

Mike McDerment:	Well, that?s interesting. So, it turned out in our case we had some mechanisms where myself and my co-founder would still be a part of the hiring process all the way to 150 employees. That?s where I kind of got off the bus and just started focusing on directors and above which I still do. So, we had the opportunity to meet folks and played an important role in that and so then we had to sniff test, hey, you have a certain standard of what you expect from people and by the way, back then it?s like, ?Geez, I have this set of questions and I have no idea if they?re the right questions.?

	But what I found was hey, they may not be the perfect questions. They should have an intent behind them but the most important thing is starting to see the patterns by using them over and over again. 

	You start to see ? I will say we hire different roles and different roles you need different strengths to be great. I expect a different answer based on role to the same question now for some of the stuff I ask and it?s more their orientation and mindset and what motivates them and it varies. QA people like trying to break things. Software people like trying to solve problems. That?s a very different thing that gets you out of bed in the morning even though you?re both technical people part of building something. Anyhow. Those are some of the things I leaned on in those days.

Jaime Masters:	That?s cool. That?s really awesome to have the nuances of that much data also when you?ve hired that ? because then you can slice it a little bit differently.

Mike McDerment:	That?s why it?s so hard when you?re starting out and you just don?t know.

Jaime Masters:	Seriously. Thank you for saying that though. People want to hear that.

Mike McDerment:	I know. It is so hard and I think the thing that I like to remind people at that stage is expect to make mistakes, just don?t let them fester. And so once you figure out you?ve kind of gone the wrong way or even if you think you have; you can gracefully help anybody leave your business at any time. There?s always a graceful way to do it. Put some thought into that. It can be an experience that ends up being positive for them. There?s a whole bunch of ways to cut that. It?s terrifying.

	I remember sort of the amount of work that went into that first conversation when we were asking our first person to go back in the day. But you get better at it and it?s important because mostly somebody who?s not doing well in your organization; they may not know it today but it?s better for them long-term if they get off that path faster. 

Jaime Masters:	Definitely. It?s always so much easier in hindsight to say that than compare that to people that are looking at firing someone right now going, ?Oh, no.? But it always turns out better for both your company and for the person because if they?re not a fit, they need to know that too. So, tell me more though especially about your strengths? Because it seems like in this evolutionary journey that you have, typically we go, ?Okay, well I?m good at these roles and I sort of level up those pieces.? It was interesting that you said, ?I stopped hiring at about 150.? So, when did you start really leaning on your strengths and what are those strengths?

Mike McDerment:	Well, geez. 

Jaime Masters:	I told you, martial art brain questions. 

Mike McDerment:	Yeah, there we go. So, maybe just a little thing as we talk about breakpoints. 40 people, not everybody knows everybody. 80 people, communication breaks down. I will say in my case I made it to 100 people and I?m not proud of this. Don?t get me wrong. But where every single thing a customer would see, every email, every change of copy in our product, every new feature developed ran across my desk and had to get through me like as a gatekeeper. And what?s interesting, it just speaks to how you build things behind yourself; I just couldn?t figure out how to get the level of quality that I wanted.

	I had hired great well-intentioned people around me but there was always kind of something missing and maybe it was just the length I?d been doing this stuff and pattern recognition or what have you. But then I finally hired what I think was my first real executive and he kind of managed me and was like, ?Okay, we?re going to do something. We?re going to go away for a little while. We?re going to bring it back to you.? Through finding that first one that took off a bunch of these pieces, I was like, ?This is the best thing since sliced bread. I am addicted.? And I went and hired a bunch more of those folks.

	And so what is the point there? I will say prior to that ? so those are kind of some strengths so maybe those are some of the last pieces. I guess that?s how I got into this is I think putting it all together. I have one of our board members now; he is an investor and he says, ?Listen; of all the founders I invest in and that?s my business, they come in three packages the ones I invest in. They are just straight up visionaries who are just so far out in the future. There are people who can really package things up in a way that matters to the market or they?re highly operational, just love the numbers, grinding things along.? I like to think I play in all of those buckets.

	But I?m a number too. I?m about packaging it all up and getting it out there. So, that?s the kind of role I was playing to 100 still and then I had to let go of that and that was hard and I feel like at times things suffer. But probably the correct long-term thing to do things and now it?s like, ?Hey, how do you build systems that recreate excellence in the background?? That?s what I?m trying to figure out now. So, that kind of speaks to some of the strengths I think.

Jaime Masters:	Big time. Yeah. Well, and the inability to let go of what you think is a huge strength. That?s a huge thing, a turning point in your life. Can you tell me a little bit more about the letting go especially when it?s something that you are good at? It?s apparently your thing, right? 

Mike McDerment:	So, for me, it always came from a place of what was best for the customer and that?s why I was doing it. I didn?t want to and I think people are like, ?Mike, you?re a bottleneck. You want this.? I?m like, ?Just the day you start making it as good or better, I am so happy to drop this.? What I hadn?t figured out how to do as a manager and leader was build a team that could do that and that?s where I needed help.

Jaime Masters:	So, was it just the person? I guess that?s the question. Tell me more about that.

Mike McDerment:	Every problem?s a people problem. Every solution?s a people solution. So, for those of you out there who are sitting there going like, ?I have a problem with an area or a thing.? It is probably the person you?re dealing with or I think you got to check this. And I like to believe this is one of my strengths. I?m not sure 100% of people who?ve worked with me over the years would say so but I think many would. It is just the self-awareness to know. Start with, ?Maybe I?m the problem. Most likely I?m the problem and I can eliminate that ? or say, ?So, my adjustment is this to try to get it the next thing, then I?m going to make that adjustment.?

	Then eventually it?s like, ?Okay, I?m done. I?m making my moves. I know it?s on the other side of that.? But I do think that even the effort to be self-aware and work through that has been a critical thing all through this stuff.

Jaime Masters:	How do you cultivate that? I love business because it is the best personal development ever, but ?

Mike McDerment:	Yes.

Jaime Masters:	 ? we talk about self-awareness but it doesn?t ever seem tangible. It?s like, ?We?ll just pay more attention.? You know what I mean? How did you actually do that? 

Mike McDerment:	Well, I think and this might go in the strengths bucket and you could argue that this is not the best quality, but being self-critical; I didn?t grow up in a household where there was much positive reinforcement.

Jaime Masters:	Wow. 

Mike McDerment:	So, you start from an, ?Okay, -- and by the way. That also means I don?t need a lot of pats on the back to stay motivated. It?s good. But I was getting feedback like, ?Hey, this can be better. You?re never there.? So, I think that probably is a big part of where it started. And then I think just kind of empathy. So the other side, hey, try to put yourself in the other person?s shoes. You marry those two things together; I think those are big parts of it. There?s probably more, maybe get motivated to have people be in a good place. I like when people around me are happy, healthy, and productive is the way I think about it. 

	And so if I can apply my empathy to understand them and some self-awareness to recognize I might be the problem, then maybe they?re going to be happy, healthy, productive. Or maybe they gotta go but ?

Jaime Masters:	One or the other. 

Mike McDerment:	That?s the calculus. 

Jaime Masters. 	I really appreciate that. It?s funny. Some data has been showing that really successful business owners have had alcoholic parents too because they?re more successful because they?re used to the change and the reading people and that sort of stuff. And I found really, really interesting the upbringing that people think is a horrible upbringing can actually make you a better business owner in the long run.

Mike McDerment:	So first things first. My parents were incredibly supportive. 

Jaime Masters:	Thank you. I didn?t mean to make fun of your parents.

Mike McDerment:	I put myself in the bucket of ? no, no, no. I just want to be clear for them so no one misconstrues. They were there with feedback of how it can better. I was the fourth too; there?s lots of going on.

Jaime Masters. 	Wow. You were the fourth of four? 

Mike McDerment:	Yeah, I was. So, let?s park them and I think get to the intent of your question. I?d go with yeah, it?s perseverance and resilience and if you survive that and let?s face it; some folks don?t. Some folks that are defined by that upbringing. And it?s true of anyone in kind of a lot of different circumstances but that?s a pretty extreme one. It can be pretty hard. So, but if you can have the resilience to keep going and finding ways; I think that?s pretty congruent with an entrepreneurial mindset. 

Jaime Masters:	Well, it?s really interesting and my parents were super super sweet and nice to me and didn?t actually push me and my brother wasn?t. He was mean. I?m like, ?That is the best gift. Like you could do better. I?m so much better than you.? And now looking at who I am and who I grew into; I actually love that. I mean it was really crappy when I was going through it, but I love it because of who it made me into and I think that?s the point is the contrast actually can be really helpful. Just like the evolution of you as a human as we?re going through things. 

	Question on the happy, healthy, how do you do that for your team? How do we really pay attention especially when they?re all humans that are all going through their own stuff? Personally, professionally. How can you sort of hone in on that and try to make that better for them?

Mike McDerment:	No silver bullets. No silver bullets. So, I think about what?s the first thing that comes to mind when you ask that question and it?s so today as a manager, I do one on ones with people. It always starts with, ?How are you doing?? I don?t want to hear about the work or what have you. I just want to get a sense of ?where are you at?? And for me, ?are you in a good place? Should we just move on? Are you in a really good place and I?d love to understand why? Did something good happen recently? Or ugh?? I want to know if there?s an ugh because then I believe nobody wants to be there alone. 

	?I?m not promising I can solve all the problems for you, but hey, can you let me in on that? And certainly, if it?s something at work and let?s understand it. Maybe you?re just lacking some perspective. Use me as a sounding board. Get out of your own head. Sometimes there can be things going on at home and maybe those ones are even harder to dig up sometimes because people don?t want to talk to their boss about that. But eventually, you build an environment where that?s going to be the first thing they?re going to tell you is like, ?Hey, I had this thing. FYI.? And you want to work with people like that. 

	So, I think it starts there with I guess the health of the individual. I?m not sure I ever articulated it quite like that, but I think starting there is a place and then the rest of it?s kind of work. And ?Do we like where we?re going? Do you have what you need? Do you understand where we?re going? Are we at odds or misaligned on something? Let?s clarify. Okay, now you?re good. I?m good. What do you need?? So, I think those are some of the basics, pretty squishy but some of the basics.

Jaime Masters:	No, I really appreciate that. I love how you said squishy too but it?s years of data from you actually doing this and yes, it?s squishy and intangible but I think all those questions help somebody else who?s going through this right now. Because if you can build a team that is that open and how do you do that? How do you get especially when you have that big of an organization somebody to be able to share personal stuff with the big guy, the boss? 

Mike McDerment:	Well, let?s be clear. As much as I wish everybody would and being a long-term founder and a consistent presence probably ? some people certainly do. I?ll say, my co-founder, Levi; I think Levi is loved. I think I?m respected. It?s different. So, Levi gets more out of folks on this stuff than I do but that?s great. So, then I would say it?s primarily applied to my team. I don?t want anyone thinking I have a perfect record and everyone ? I wish that was the world but I?ve come to realize the title and the role just increasingly creates barriers for some folks. Not everybody but for some and that?s been a hard thing.

	So, I found that very hard and then I said, ?There are the gives and the gets.? I enjoy what I?m doing. We?re scaling. We?re providing a great place for people. If the give is I?m not going to have that kind of relationship with 100% of people here; I can live with it. So, back to your initial question which again, I may or may not have lost the plot on. It was a follow-up to how do you do that with people but I don?t remember what it was.

Jaime Masters:	The building of the culture in there. So, how do you actually do that initially to make sure that you have a culture that is willing to share even with Levi if it?s not with you? 

Mike McDerment:	Yeah. Well, and there?s different kinds of sharing. There?s bad news sharing. People are always pretty good about getting that to me about the business fast and I think that?s important. So, I think it starts with you being pretty consistent no matter what the environments are and try to be pretty forthright. We have all company meetings every quarter now and those finish off with about 10 minutes of me doing what we call the CEO corner and I go from red to green actually. ?So, here?s what?s deeply troubling about where we?re at right now? and it?s got a forward-looking thing. Then it?s like, ?Here are some concerns I have.? And then ?here are a handful of things that are going really, really well.? 

	And so I think just trying to be a little more straight about that. I think I?ve always been pretty comfortable with that. We had various leaders over the years that always wanted the news to be good and I think that that?s actually a terrible thing for fundamentally, trust. If you?re always making it good and I got sucked into a little bit of it but by and large try to be like, ?Here?s what I think for better or for worse.? I?m naturally critical. I probably had to try and work on being more positive but I think that then people know. And then not freaking out. 

	If there are bad things, then it?s like, ?Okay. How are we doing? Thank you for letting me know. What are we doing about it? Can I help?? That?s kind of just enough time.

Jaime Masters:	Okay. It?s really awesome to hear the evolution of you as a human because even just your thought process on how you?re doing things has shifted from the beginning of, ?Oh, no.? We have to do sort of this low-level stuff. Not low-level stuff but smaller tasks, intangible, that kind of thing. So now I have to let go more these big esoteric type feelings. How much do I let them know? How does that affect them? That sort of stuff. What are you spending your time on now? Is it this stuff? Like writing these CEO things and how to word stuff? What are you typically working on?

Mike McDerment:	Well, it?s interesting. I?m kind of straining to do new and different things. So, since I?ve been in the role ? it changed every quarter. I didn?t even know what it was for a long time. I could not call myself a CEO for a long time.

Jaime Masters:	Really? Tell me more about that. Why?

Mike McDerment:	Oh, I guess it would be like imposter syndrome or whatever. But I was disgusted by I?d read about a company and their three people and the CEO is ? and I?m like, ?Come on. You?re a three-person company. Maybe a president or something but come on.?

Jaime Masters:	That?s awesome.

Mike McDerment:	So, that?s what I was like. Marry that with I had no actual clue what the role was. I had never seen it before so it was sort of confusing. But I was probably doing a lot of the things which is good. 

Jaime Masters:	Now.

Mike McDerment:	So, now where do I spend my time? So again, the role changed every sort of quarter and then probably the last while every six months and then I probably spent a year kind of doing some operational stuff because we had a big project. And I think the lesson out of that for me was, I stayed involved with that for too long. I have enough of an organization around me and when I say involved, I was keeping tabs on it and occasional stuff. But I was probably spending too much time even staying up to date with it and just not letting it go. 

	So, that?s a lesson and so now where my time is going. It?s interesting. I?m setting things up so my role is really 18 months plus. What are the things that are going to impact us in three and five years? And I have said that at various times. I?ve set things up, I?ve built a function that?s supporting me in doing that but now I?m getting comfortable having nothing on my agenda. Maybe just puttering around, just being less operational and accountable. I think even sit and think time and I have started ? also, here?s a fun thing that you don?t hear every day. 

	Back to scaling culture. I?ve taken it upon myself ? last year I started it, to write a book that I think documents ? we?ve been a top place to work if you know the great places to work stuff. We were No. 1 under 1,000 employees so we?re not competing with Google but under 1,000 employees, we?re No. 1 in 2015, No. 4 in 2016, No. 7 in 2016. So, the trend could be better but still top ten.

Jaime Masters:	It could be better. You?re hilarious. I could have been No. 1 all those years. Man. 

Mike McDerment:	Yeah, yeah. So, then I decided like, ?Hey, we?re getting at around 300 people or whatever. I?ve got to go and try and document what it is I think makes this place tick and kind of write that down.?

	So, that was even a bit of a moment and interesting what I did is I put myself on an island, literally out of the office and I just write. And I find my role is increasingly going back to do the things I used to do. We spent three and a half years in my parents? basement getting going. I?m going to be doing more of that stuff I feel like in my future than I have in the last decade which is actually kind of fun. So yeah, that?s kind of what my role is turning into which is crazy but it is what it is. 

Jaime Masters:	Crazy. No, I love hearing the evolution of it but what?s so interesting is you said those three types of people, the visionary, the packager, and the operator and you?re good at all of them but you?re sort of leaning more into ? 

Mike McDerment:	I did not say I was good at all of them.

Jaime Masters:	You said No. 2 was your thing.

Mike McDerment:	I can get by. 

Jaime Masters:	What?s really cool is to have you go ? you are so self-critical. I love that. ?No, it?s not even what I said.? But it seems like you?re moving more towards the visionary, looking out three to five years quite a bit. Is that more uncomfortable or does that feel good?

Mike McDerment:	Yep. I think what?s uncomfortable is moving away from the third thing which is the numbers and what have you and just sort of letting that go and recognizing that?s okay. So, I actually just have enormous confidence in the team. It was more like I had to stop doing it to realize it?s just not a good use of my time. The returns on that are just not great and the things that are going to make a real difference for us again, five years from now or I got to go off and spend time differently and those will be the big returns.

	So, and it?s squishier and it?s fun and it will probably be a little ? I don?t want to use creative but I love building. So, I would get more energy ? the most energy probably comes from No. 2 for me so I can spend some time on vision, then I?m going to be like, ?Okay, how do we get the thing on the rails? How do we figure out what it is for people?? Because that will be fun. I?ll get to play in 1 and 2 some more.

Jaime Masters:	It?s so valuable to hear the evolution of what you?ve been doing. And it?s funny. I didn?t even realize that you were in the top whatever for your employees, but you can just tell. That?s why we started asking you a million questions about that because it does seem like you care so much about your team so I can?t wait. We?ll have you back on when the book comes out. Right? Yes? You?re like, ?I don?t know about this interview anymore.?

Mike McDerment:	Sure. Yeah. No, this is fun. As long as it?s helpful for your audience and you allow me back, then I?m in. 

Jaime Masters:	Sweet. On that note, we do have to wrap up. But good, you?ll be back. 

Mike McDerment:	And I will actually for the sake of clarity, the book is internal purposes only.

Jaime Masters:	Oh, darn. 

Mike McDerment:	But I do have a book that I?ve written that we haven?t released so maybe we can do it after that. It?s for clients and agencies around how to actually generate revenue from clients. 

Jaime Masters:	But you?re so good at this. You?re so good at the team side. All right. Well, maybe later we can publish it. That?s what happened on Michael Gerber book and all that fun stuff. Not Michael Gerber. I just interviewed him. I can?t even remember. So, anyway on that note, on the last question, what is one action out of everything we talked about or something else, what is one action listeners can take this week to help move them forward towards their goal of a million? 

Mike McDerment:	Okay. So, based on some of the themes and stuff we talked about today, let?s just go to strengths. I think your goal is to play to your strengths. And I didn?t get to the part of how I got to do that and I kind of had a better half at work and still do, this gentleman, Levi. The thing about Levi is ? he kind of loved to do the things I hated doing. So, I want to kind of talk about something, solve the problem but I don?t want to write it down and produce the document and do whatever. Or like the administrivia of running a business and so what I would say is and some people say, ?Geez, I don?t have any employees.? 

	Find one thing you can delegate today. Give it to somebody else and maybe that?s a virtual assistant that you?re going to hire for five to ten hours a month. So, you don?t have any employees, no excuse for not doing this. Find something that you don?t get energy from doing and love doing and just make it happen without your time going against it and you can thank me later. 

Jaime Masters:	A million times yes. People, listen to him right now and then, of course, go get FreshBooks and it?s freshbooks.com. Can we find you online? Do you post anything or are you completely internal? 

Mike McDerment:	I?m a little bit Twitter these days and we?ll see if I start to do more stuff. But you can certainly find me there and I?d love to hear from you.

Jaime Masters:	Perfect. Thanks so much for coming on the show today. I really appreciate it. 

Mike McDerment:	Okay. Thanks for having me.

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