How gen z will change the world with Jason Dorsey

Jason Dorsey is the leading generational researcher, speaker, and author. He’s appeared on 60 Minutes, The Today Show, The Early Show, and over 200 more TV shows. Jason is on a mission to help leaders solve generational challenges with employees, customers, and emerging trends to grow their business faster.

His new book, Zconomy: How Gen Z Will Change the Future of Business, is based on his work leading more than 65 generational research studies on four continents and working with over 700 companies, including many of the biggest global brands–from Mercedes to Adidas. Adweek calls Jason a “research guru.” A powerful communicator, Jason has received over 1,000 standing ovations for his unique approach to separating generational myth from truth, with an emphasis on Gen Z and Millennials.

“Online presence in itself is going to be a very big deal over the next three to five years, and Gen Z is gonna drive a ton of that forward, just because their relationship is so much different.” – Jason Dorsey

Episode Highlights:

The background of the book, Zconomy: How Gen Z Will Change the Future of Business
The difference between Gen Z and millennials
What motivates Gen Z to want to take a job
Gen Z’s impact on social media as influencers
Transforming social media into a community
Distinguishing activity from progress (A small business owner’s point of view)
Learn how to advertise with current trends
How Youtube fits with current trends
How Gen Z will present themselves professionally
The impact of COVID 19 to Gen Z (employment, education, etc.)
College: Is it for everybody

Transcript: Download

Video Transcription provided by GMR Transcription Services.

Jaime Masters: Welcome to Eventual Millionaire. I am Jaime Masters, and we finally have my good friend Jason Dorsey on the show. He's a generational researcher. You can check him out at jasondorsey.com, and he's coming out with a new book called Zconomy, and our good friend Jay Baer had to introduce him which is funny, because I've known him forever. I've just never asked him on the show. Thank you so much for coming on today, Jason.

Jason Dorsey: Oh, it's my pleasure. I've been a fan for years. So, we made it happen! Yes!

Jaime Masters: Hey, if you would've asked, I would've said yes, too. Sorry that Jay had to ask. But either way, I'm glad you're here, no matter how you got here. Tell me more about your new book, especially because when whether it be millennials, or the Generation Z, we're all looking at them, now that I'm an old person and going, Ah! Right? So tell me what the age range of Generation Z is, and a little bit more about them.

Jason Dorsey: Yeah, it's a great question. I think it's important just in the way you said it. We're always focusing on the next generation, and I think the reason is they drive the trends. Employment trends, consumer trends, fashion trends, technology trends. So, for Gen Z, at our research firm here, we define the older members as about 24, 25 years old. And then the youngest ones, we're not sure, because again, you don't know when a generation ends until they're old enough to say, Hey! You're really different than this other group that's behind you, right?

But what is exciting about our work, is we uncovered when Gen Z started, and that's as important as figuring out when they end. And what we uncovered is that Gen Z does not remember 9/11. And this is a really big deal, because for millennials like me, 9/11 changed my life, right? It just completely changed everything. But the 24 and 25 year olds we interviewed in the book don't remember 9/11. To them, it's been history. They learned about it in school, or on YouTube, or from a parent, which is just amazing to think about. But it also sort of contextualizes everything else that is important to them, and what has happened as they've come of age.

So, while 9/11 is the defining event of millennials, who are now, believe it or not, already up to age 40-ish. So they're around 40, right? So, all of a sudden, millennials everybody thinks they're so young, and their pants are falling off, and they live with their mom are now, on average, over the age of 30, largest generation in the workforce and outspending everybody. And so, now we're turning our attention to Gen Z, and that's why we wrote the book.

Because pretty much every business, every industry, every leader, and all of your listeners who are out there making things happen every day: You've gotta be aware of the trends. And the key trend-driver is Gen Z. And this generation's large. They're diverse. They don't remember a time before social media. Interestingly they're much more frugal than other generations, which is pretty shocking. Happy to talk more about that. And they look at work differently than other generations, as well. So, it's a really important time to understand them, and when we look ahead: Gen Z is already the fastest-growing generation of employees.

So, for business owners out there, this is the group we need to be paying attention to. And they're driving every major new consumer trend. So, this is the moment. So, I wrote the book: because they're so different from millennials, and so many business owners struggled with millennials, and still do; and now they're going, Here's another generation! And that's why we wrote the book. Gotta give them the answers.

Jaime Masters: Well, and I'm going to ask you questions about millennials which I technically am, but I look at them also like an old curmudgeon. Because I mean that when especially when it comes to hiring, and I chat with a bunch of my clients, they're like, Those millennials! They don't know how to talk on the phone! They don't know how to, right? And I'm like, Yeah, those people. They suck. You know? So, tell me a little about what defines millennials, and that way we'll be able to see the big difference between Gen Z and the millennials.

Jason Dorsey: Yeah. So, when we look at generations our research center is called the Center for Generational Kinetics. And what we're looking for is called predictability by scenario. We're just trying to understand: When does a group of people born about the same time start to behave differently than the group before or after. Right? So, if you sort of step back and ask, What is a generation? Right? It's a birth cohort. It's a group of people born about the same time.

But what's overlooked, and I think really important because you have a global audience, is: Generations will vary around the world. So, the same groups, for millennials in the U.S. are different than millennials in India, or China. And sometimes we sort of forget that. But when we start to look at that, you look at what shapes a generation. Things like parenting. So, the parents of millennials like you and me: Our parents are baby boomers. Right? The baby boomer generation, and they had this mantra of, We want to be easier for our children than it was for us! And they succeeded! They created all the...

Jaime Masters: Too much! Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Dorsey: And so, that's important to know, because the parents of Gen Z are primarily Generation X. And that's important because Gen X basically told their kids, "You will not end up like those millennials!" And I think there's a fun point here to make. I'm a millennial, and I believe you're a millennial as well. We believe, at CGK, our research center, that millennials have split into two different generations. And we've been tracking this for several years now. You have one part of the generation we call "megallennials."

Those are the ones like you, and me, and your listeners, who are doing what it takes every day. We go to work; or we start a business; we're pursuing our dreams. And we just go about what we're supposed to do. And then you have another part of the generation that's really struggling to create real-world traction, and that it's split. It's really a split. And this is what's really wild: The group most offended by millennials acting entitled at work are other millennials who do not feel entitled.

Jaime Masters: Yes. I am part of your research and didn't know it. Yes!

Jason Dorsey: You actually have a very millennial response. You're like, You are not representing us well! But the media because I'm in the news all the timealways wants to talk about millennials that are struggling to sort of pull themselves forward, and sort of get their act together. And millennials, frankly, can't stand it either, because we're like, Hey, we call them megallennials You're making us all look bad. We're showing up to work, we're doing what we're supposed to do.

So, there's this split which, by the way, is playing out in so many different parts of our life. So, millennials keep getting older. The average age of a millennial is now over the age of 30, which is pretty wild. And while younger millennials had social media, older ones didn't. Remember? They came up with dial-up, and the flip-phones, all this kind of jazz. I think people, when we ask, How old do you think millennials are? They think, Oh, they're 25, when we're really 40. So, it's sort of a mental shift.

Jaime Masters: We pretend we're 25. It's fun. I'm still 25, totally.

Jason Dorsey: You probably [inaudible] [0:05:46] to be 25, right? Some people are just forever stuck in their age, but the rest of us keep getting older. So, as we sort of look ahead, what we notice is that Gen Z starts to be very different. So, their parents are different. The role of technology is different. They've always had social media. They?ve always had the internet.

Like right now, my daughter's 9 years old. She's in the book quite a bit. It's interesting. She just turned in or, I guess, a little bit ago now turned in her final project for the school year. So, she's 9, right? Third grade, at the time. She went on Google Classroom. She built her presentation on Google Slides. She added animation. Hers is in Spanish, because she goes to a Spanish school. She recorded her presentation, submitted it, and thought it was so normal she didn't even tell me. Right? She's 9.

Jaime Masters: Can I hire her?

Jason Dorsey: [Inaudible ? crosstalk] [0:6:31] here. And so, I say that, because to her, that's totally normal. And particularly as we think about, maybe, the impact of COVID-19 on Gen Z, we can get into that a little bit more. But already, the generation's very different than millennials, in terms of these key areas. Now, they're younger, so their life stage is also younger. But as they continue to age up, they're driving all these trends. Everything from music and entertainment, even banking. How they think about money, and sharing money with friends, and digital couponing, and so forth. Very, very different. So you have this exciting generation. And millennials are older.

They're the older group, and then you have Gen Z. And then for those sort of lost in the birth years, I'll start at the top. So, baby boomers are born about 1946 to 1964, roughly. Gen X was born about 1965 to 1976. And millennials are born somewhere approximately 1977 to 1995. Now, anywhere from 77 to 80 could be the beginning. It depends if you lived in an urban area, or if your family was rich, or if they were well-educated, or if you traveled. All of those would have meant you'd seen trends sooner, which means you'd be more like a millennial.

But if you lived in a more rural place, or your parents didn't have much money, you would have seen things later, which would've made you more like Gen X at that time. Those are called cuspers, and it's an advantage because it makes you empathetic to both. And so, we've looked at Gen Z, and they're the most consistent generation in the world. I know you have a big global audience.

So, Gen Z, when I go speak in Singapore, or India, or all across Europe, or these places, Gen Z is more similar than any other generation. Now, they're not the same, but they're more similar. And that's because of cheap mobile technology, entertainment, and so forth. And they've always had that. In fact, you can get phones for free in some countries in the world, if you use a pre-payment. So, it's a really interesting time for research dorks like me? to look at this.

Jaime Masters: I love data. Okay, we only so much time, but I want to have you back on this show already. Okay, so, especially when it comes to small business owners that are looking towards the future and going, Where are things going? Right? Knowing who our workforce is gonna be, but also like you said, what they care about. Because we really need to know what we have to be doing futuristically, right, on accepting payments.

We were just chatting about how we can close huge sales on text, and back in the day that was so foreign. So, tell me a little bit more about the findings of some of the things you've gone down, and especially the comparison between the millennials who are getting the technology side of things versus Gen Z.

Jason Dorsey: Yeah. So, I think the distinction on the tech side is that people say millennials are tech savvy, and we've basically proved they're not. And what they are is, they're tech-dependent. And that's important, because we don't know how technology works. We just know we cannot live without it. That's a big difference than actually being savvy. So, when we look at the difference, maybe we'll split it between employment. So, in the book, we talk about who is Gen Z, what makes them so unique and different, and why do we need to pay attention now, why should we take action as leaders.

And then we break it half into as customers, Gen Z as customers, and half as employees. So, maybe we'll dip into a little bit of both. So, in the Zconomy book on the employment side, the first thing we had to look at is: What motivates Gen Z to want to take a job? And I think this is important. I'm a small business owner myself, and I think it's really important that we're clear on what people want. So, this is where it gets really surprising. We found that what Gen Z wanted, for example, was stability. They wanted to know your company's going to be around for a while. Why is that important? Well, they went through the Great Recession. Now, they weren't in the workforce, but their parents were. And so, they felt the anxiety. They heard about it. And they got scared and nervous.

And so, as a result, they look for more stability, which is a real shock. It's the opposite of millennials. They also want scheduling flexibility. Now, this is before COVID-19. So, it's interesting, because some small business owners are able to do this, and other aren't. And one of the solutions we've seen, which is sort of creative, is small business owners who say, Well, I can't hire you full-time, and you don't want to work full-time. But what if I hire you for three days, and your friend for two days? So, I still cover everything, you both get flexibility, and then now we can meet your needs and not increase our cost.

So, we're actually seeing companies do that. So, scheduling flexibility and the ability to change schedules through text message is really important, and there's lots of ways to do that. We're also looking at onboarding now. There's a really cool company called OnBoarder, and the do their whole onboarding this is so wild by text message. So, if you think about Gen Z, they think email is for old people, right? Email is for millennials.

And so, they're really into text. So, OnBoarder, who is in the book, their entire onboarding process is by text message. They use that to introduce you to your colleagues. They use that to get the information they need. They'll ask you what's your favorite snack at 3:00 when your energy's down, and then when you show up on your first day, people have the snack on your desk. Just amazing things like that. So, onboarding's become really important with Gen Z. They're also entering the workforce later, which is important. So, they don't necessarily know what they need to be successful, which is why we're seeing learning being such a big deal.

One of the companies we work with a lot is called Skoox, and they do all of their online learning through a mobile device. Well, that's really important, if you work, for example, in a small business. What are you gonna do, sit in front of a computer? Lots of them can't do that. So, they need all their learning-on-demand on a mobile device. Well, that's very different from old learning management systems. So, we see that start to change.

And then, as we look ahead, what else do we see attracts Gen Z? This one's a shocker: benefits. Benefits is one of the top 3 things they say in every study we that we do, and which is so strange, because they're so young. But, in the book, as we talked about it, we found that 12% of Gen Z were already saving for retirement 2 years ago.

Jaime Masters: Yay.

Jason Dorsey: Yeah. It's wild. On paper, if you look at them, they think they're going to have to work longer and harder to get promoted. They are trying to save. They have emergency accounts, which is wild. It may be on the Cash App, or Venmo, but they have one. Right? They're much more cautious with their money, they're trying to avoid debt. And it's pretty amazing. On paper, they look a lot like baby boomers. We call them a throw-back generation. So, as you think about marketing to them, as employees, it's different than the millennial, You can get promoted fast and get stock options, and all this kind of rah-rah stuff.

Instead, it's, I want stability, I want to know you're gonna help develop my talent, how are you gonna help me to still have a life, and then the last would be social causes. Gen Z feels very strongly about social causes. The top two over the last five years we've been tracking are climate change, and then social justice. So, both of those are the top two. And when it comes to those things, what we see is Gen Z wants to know what you're actually doing, not what you're saying.

And I think there's a distinction there for small business owners, because they're not saying, "Who wrote the biggest check?" That's not it. They're saying, "What are you doing in your community? What are you doing to help people?" So, all of those on the employment side sort of give people a leg up in terms of understanding, and there's a lot more obviously in the book. But, that sort of, from a mindset, how to practically start, gives you a head start to be able to connect with them. We're really excited about them.

Jaime Masters: You're giving me hope for our future. One of the other conversations that I had earlier today with a different millionaire interview was about social justice, and how writing checks is not and I'm like, I think, eventually, one day, we're gonna change. They already have. Yay! And so, anyway. Paying attention that we're not declining, as far as humanity, makes me feel very excited. Especially getting back to the things that matter, and not, like you said, quick exits and all this stuff. Stability is really important. All right, so, that's on that side. What about on the other side?

Jason Dorsey: On the customer side? Yeah, it's a bit of a mix of all of this. So, what we see is that influencers and social media are more important than ever before. But it's different, I think, than other generations assume, because other generations sort of look at social media and influencers through the lens of their own generation, right?

First, it's Gen Z who's only known them. They don't remember a time before social media influencers existed. In fact, in one of our studies we found that Gen Z trusts many social media influencers check this outmore than PhDs, MDs, academics? what was the other one? There was one more. There was one other one. Oh, being called an expert. So, they trusted influencers more than all of those, which is exciting, right? What a huge opportunity. Also scary.

Jaime Masters: Scary, yes.

Jason Dorsey: Depending on how you look at it. But it creates a huge opportunity for brains. Now, there is clearly brain-risk, as we've seen, but there's a huge opportunity to be able to get in front of Gen Z. Because what we have to teach people, particular on the marketing and sales side, is Gen Z trusts social media. Many of us are skeptical about it, or clearly it's misinformation or disinformation all of which is true, that's all on there, without question but Gen Z has never known a time other than being able to go on there. Right?

My daughter's 9, she loves to go on TikTok and follow her favorite TikTok influencers. That's her thing. And so, she has 400 followers now, she's very excited. And for her it's a big deal. But it's always been normal to her. Same with the YouTubers she follows, and the gamers, and so forth. So, when we share that, it's just hard to sort of step back. We call this "generational context" in the book. It's hard to sort of step back and go, Okay. I don't want to look at this through my lens, as a millennial. I have to look at this through the lens of Gen Z.

So, social media and influences, really big deal. And not just in the superficial ads and so forth. But you've really got to create that true engagement, and really try to connect with, and create a sense of community. We think communities really are the future online. And then, going from that, what's really key with Gen Z is the initial purchase. And I always joke, because people are like, Oh, I want to build loyalty with Gen Z. I was like, Well, hold off on the loyalty. Just try to get the first purchase. Loyalty will come later. If they don't buy the first thing, you got nothing.

And so, that's where that awareness and initial trial comes in. And what we see is that Gen Z really wants you to de-risk that initial trial. How do you do that? You can make it free. You can make it money-back. You can offer free shipping both ways if they don't like it; full returns. You can do all kinds of things. Writings and reviews. Have any of my peers or friends bought this? What do they think of it? All of those things. The whole key with Gen Z, and online purchases in particular, is you want to de-risk it. You want to make the risk so low they're like, Of course I'm gonna buy that. And if I don't like it, I just send it back and it's not a big deal.

Because that first purchase unlocks everything else. Then you can time to loyalty, and we can do frequency, and we can do all these cool things with pricing and causes and whatever. But I gotta get that first purchase. And so, I teach all the time, these businesses we work with: we gotta drive the first purchase. And if you deliver on the promise, we'll get to the loyalty. But that awareness is really key. Awareness from a trusted source, awareness in a way that takes away risk and then creates some sense of urgency. Now, we know, because Gen Z's frugal, they want to know they got a good deal. That's a big deal. Yes, exclusivity's nice and exciting, but not if you really want to scale.

They truly want to know they got a good deal, it's gonna last a long time, they weren't taken advantage of, and they can tell their friends about. I mean, Gen Z's driving double-digit growth at thrift stores. It's wild. These are 24 year-olds. They go thrifting, right? And nobody looks down on it, like there used to be, You go to thrift stores. I used to wear clothes from thrift stores, and Oh my gosh, that's terrible, Jason. Now it's like, That's a cool thing to do! You're smart with your money! I'm like, Where was I when that happened?

And so, as you sort of look ahead: They're more frugal with their money. They're looking at different types of payment. Pay-by-text is going to be completely normal for them. In many ways it is, but the problem is when you look at pay-by-text because I work a lot in the space you have to do it in a way that the interface is intuitive, so I don't have to keep entering my credit cards. So, the whole know-your-customer and all these pieces like, we work with one company. They're actually based here in Austin, called Everywhere if you pay by text, you can just say it'll just say like, Would you like whatever? and you just type in, Yes, and then it confirms and it sends it to you.

So, it's a whole different thing than, You gotta go over here, and you gotta enter this, and you gotta go blah-blah-blah. Every one of those steps just adds friction, right? And particularly when somebody has bought from you. So, we want to see really frictionless payments, predictive payments, and predictive coupons. What do I mean by that? Well, if we're tracking your data in the future, it should be able to tell you, Hey, it's Thursday. I know that the last three Thursdays, Jason bought lunch here. I'm gonna serve up a coupon for him.

And so, you're seeing that happen. You're seeing that happen with all kinds of tech, but also companies. There's a company in Austin called Dosh, they can give you cash back money. They're increasingly better with their AI, doing really cool work there. And so they're in the book, too and so, as you start to sort of look ahead, you realize that all the data created around payments is going to be a big deal. And the more of that data we can use, the better we can engage Gen Z, because they're gonna expect that.

In fact this is really wild in one of the studies we did, we found that Gen Z was the group most willing to give up their private data their personal information to have a better online shopping experience. We did that study with WP Engine. Gen Z was more willing to do that than any other generation. Gen Xers are like, No way! Millennials are like, Uh, maybe; Gen Z is like, Yep, you can have it. I just want a better experience.

Jaime Masters: I knew it. I knew that this was inevitable. It's so funny; and realizing, though, that it's already coming to pass, is very, really interesting. It's inevitable that they're gonna give their data up, and they would much rather have okay. So, I have so many questions that I wrote down for this. And I do think it's hilarious, because my 11 year-old daughter told me about these new couponing apps, and I was like, Why do you know about all these crazy tech, right? My daughter. Okay, great. And to Tucker, also, just as a side note, we should get our girls together.

But when it comes to especially to go back to the influencer side of things. For small businesses, a lot of them are really working on being thought leaders, or at least that's how we sort of put it. But influencer for influence? sake doesn't always gel with them, right? And yet my son everybody wants to be a YouTuber. Everybody wants to be a TikToker or whatever those things are. So, do we define influencer differently also? Because I think I'm technically called an influencer, and I guess I have a bad connotation of them, because there's too many liars on the internet.

Jason Dorsey: Yeah. So, I think there's a few distinctions here. So, one is sort of the internet marketing influencer, which I find very icky, and I think a lot of people do, right? Here I am with my 17 fancy cars, and whatever else, and the next thing you find, they haven't paid taxes in 10 years, and whatever. But that is not what I mean by influencer. By influencer, I mean it's somebody that this is, by the way with qualities they like, they trust, and they want more information from. That's pretty straightforward, right?

So, the way I like to distinguish it, particularly with small business owners is think of social media as a way to create a community. What are the things that you would put out to create a community of people that wanted to stay in touch with you, Right? Content, videos, insights. We teach big companies how to be thought leaders, but small businesses can do the same exact thing. Where many small businesses have a hard time is they try to get there particular through paid only, and then they feel like they didn't get what they paid for.

So, they're running all these paid campaigns, they're trying to get eyeballs, they're looking at impressions, they're doing all the stuff, and they're going, I just spent a thousand bucks and I didn't get anything. Right? And so, I always say, before you do that because the typical online marketing way is to go and dump a bunch of money and test a bunch of things really fast, and get better and better and better. Which, if you're an internet marketer, is great. But if you're running a bakery, or your insurance, or whatever it is, you don't have time to do that. Maybe you have the budget.

But if you don't, what I always say is: Start an organic community first, because that will help you to know what your people truly want. Right? And I think this is so far overlooked, because everybody wants fast results, and no effort, like it's some sort of fad diet. That's not how social media works, right? You have to really go out there and cultivate. How do you do that? You put out some good content, maybe two or three times a week, don't overthink it; you don't need to write your big novel. Just put out some good information, ask people what they think, and keep going. Tag people in it, do basic things, use hashtags, and just start to get a feel.

The big thing I tell people is: Don't be scared of it as a small business owner, because you're not asking anybody to buy anything yet, right? But you gotta give them information, create a sense of community. And I would try that well before I would go start pumping money into pay-per-click. Or, if you're gonna use PPC, your pay-per-click, do it knowing that you're not trying to be an influencer.

In that case, just say, Hey, we are gonna do digital marketing, and we are gonna put money in, a dollar, and we gotta figure out how to get a dollar five out, or whatever the economics are for you; and then be really clear on that, and just have your social media as a backdrop to that. But trying to drive paid to social media as a small business owner is extremely hard. It's frustrating and it's tiring, and I don't think it's often the best use of people's capital. I'm sure I just offended a whole bunch of marketers out there, but I get to see everybody's data, so I can tell you how it works.

Jaime Masters: I agree with you completely. Also, thank you for dispelling all the myths that are out there about of like, Fast! Go! Ready! You can! and building the community that will actually last, right? Especially if it takes a long time to necessarily build. But, I have a question about community, also. I know you probably have more to say, but when it comes to what I see as community, I don't know that even social media that I'm on has that level of interaction between others.

Like we have comments, and blah blah blah, but it doesn't feel like we have an actually sticking point community-wise. Like, I'm old-school, so I'm like, forums, and that kind of stuff. Where do you see that going? Is there any software that will help with actually fostering community better, that we can pull from online social media to a real community, or no? Do you mean comments?

Jason Dorsey: I haven't seen any that's sort of automated, to be candid. I know there are many people that I'm friends with, that have hired community managers. So, if you're a small business owner, let's pretend, and maybe you're in a Mastermind or some other group: You all might go in together and hire a, quote, community manager, and then I'll pay if there's five of you. I'll pay 1/5, and then everybody benefits and gets somebody who's really working on it.

Or, there's outsource people that I've seen. I haven't seen tech specifically; there may be some. But I would also say that creating a sense of community doesn't have to be just social media and social media comments. So, for example, I know you have that great offer on your website where people can get these strategies to help them become Eventual Millionaires. So, when we think about that, okay: You're getting people's emails. You're giving them something that's massively valuable. Well, what I always look at, is when I send out an email to our list, how many people write me back?

And it's pretty funny, because if you just put, Let me know what you think! Hit reply, and all of a sudden 400 people write you back which has never happened, by the way, to me but whatever that is that you do, then all of a sudden you can start to drive engagement through email. And I think this is where the generational piece breaks down. You have some people that think community is, Oh, I'm getting tons of comments on Facebook, or Instagram, or Snapchat, or whatever, or, I have tons of followers, but for many people having a big email list might be what community really is to them.

But instead of just sending them offers, actually trying to drive conversation. Directing them somewhere, creating videos and so forth. So, when I think of community, it's probably broader than social media. But that's because I believe, basked on all our generational work, you have to communicate with people on the channel that's most comfortable for them. We know what it is for Gen Z, we know what is for millennials, we even know what it is for Gen X and boomers. And depending on how your community skews, it's important to be where they all are.

It's a lot easier to go where they are than try to ask them to come to you, and that's a lot of what the Zconomy book's about. Just going and doing the math: Is it worth adapting to try to reach this new generation, or not And candidly, for some people it's not. If you're trying to sell life insurance, a 24 and under group is not who you're looking for.

Jaime Masters: Well, now they want stability, so now, who the heck knows? I want my life insurance when I was 22. But, yes. To me, community means them interacting with each other. But what you're saying is, having a group of people, even if it's a one-way communication between you and them, it doesn't necessarily mean that they have to talk to each other.

Jason Dorsey: Correct. Yeah. There's this perception that the people in my, quote, following, have to want to hang out and visit with each other like it's Reddit. And we're trying to say that's not necessarily what it is. There's a lot of people that may not want to share with each other, and there's some that do. And I really believe our clientele are primarily executives and senior leaders many times they don't want to share what's going on, because they can't, legally or otherwise. But they want to ask me a question, or they want to engage in a conversation. Or they're responding to the emails with their own questions. "Hey, Jason, on your next this, can you answer this question."

You know what I'm saying? And so, it's just sort of being where they are, versus our Gen Z stuff that we do for brands, because they're maybe very social media. Right? They may all be on TikTok, just depending on what it is we're gonna do. A new shoe drop for a shoe brand. Right? And the trick with all this is it's not one-size-fits-all, but what generations give us are really powerful predictive clues on where to start, so you can faster figure out what it is you should be doing that will drive the results that you want.

Jaime Masters: Without having to do all the data and the research yourself for your customers, Jason has already done it for you, so listen to him instead.

Jason Dorsey: Hey [inaudible crosstalk] [0:26:12] study so far. Yes.

Jaime Masters: It makes a lot of sense. Shortcut. And I think that's the thing that's so difficult though, too, is because we're thrown at so many different new trends, like TikTok. One of my friends is like, I just want to see if I can get followers on TikTok. And now she has 70,000, and to look at the people that are on TikTok. I have a couple clients that should not be on TikTok, in any way, shape, or form, because their people are nowhere near TikTok right now but they were like, We are on TikTok, because that's what we thought was good.

So, No. 1, who needs to be where, is like you were saying. And No. 2, what if it goes away? Like, we build up this crazy, huge following, and then TikTok's dead, or whatever. Because I feel like that's where we started to understand, as millennials: I put all my eggs in the MySpace basket, and then went, Oh, well there goes that. Right?

Jason Dorsey: Yeah. Yeah, well we're making somebody else's platform more valuable when we do that, right? And so, I think that's where the trick comes down to. So, one is understanding where are the people you want to reach? And let me step back, and say it this way, because I speak at so many small business owner conferences, and work with some small business owners: It's very easy as a small business owner to get excited about activity rather than progress.

Jaime Masters: Yes.

Jaime Masters: And I think what we have to all learn to do and I'm a small business owner is really distinguish between the two, and say, Is this towards progress, or is this an activity? Being busy doesn't mean you're moving the business forward, and your time is really valuable. And for everybody listening: Your time is massively valuable. We're not gonna get a single minute back. And so, making sure that we're really discerning of does where we're putting our time move us forward.

Social media is one of the biggest time sucks, black holes, ever invented. You could scroll forever and feel like you're being productive, and then go, Gosh, I don't know why nobody bought from me today, and, I don't know why my employees aren't engaged, and whatever. So, you have to be careful with that. But if you do want to use social media, or different platforms, I'll sort of walk you through some high-level data. So, when we look at going youngest to oldest TikTok and Snapchat in the U.S. are clearly the ones where Gen Z is.

And so, that's where Gen Z wants to go. And if you're going to try to reach them on those platforms, you want to make sure that you have the right personality. You want to make sure that you put out the right content. And frankly, that there's a business case for it. And I think this is where, when you get to that part, you're like, Ooh, maybe, maybe not. And that's where I would really be thoughtful. It's a great thing to do. Now, we're watching TikTok's average user age is going up. So, we are seeing it skew up, because more millennials are being pulled in, and like most...

Jaime Masters: I'm on it now. Yeah.

Jason Dorsey: Yeah. Right?

Jaime Masters: All of our kids are on it. We have to be on it too, to watch them.

Jason Dorsey: Well, but that's exactly it. What we're seeing is technology trends for the first time start with the youngest, and ripple up to the oldest. It's sort of like video calls, FaceTime. Grandparents never wanted to do it. Then, once they did it, they never wanted to talk to you any other way. And now, kids won't talk to you unless they can see you, right? And so, we're sort of seeing those trends. So, TikTok and SnapChat would really skew the youngest.

Then, if you sort of jump up, you'll see that Instagram is really good for the older Gen Zers, and even the younger millennials, and more and more millennials. Particularly as these platforms add video. So, video is the secret to all platforms right now. People don't want to read. Even cool photos of dogs and cats and whatever other stuff that they're doing. At some point, people just are tired of that.

So, video is just sort of, Feed me the information instead of making me work. And so, we see video really being incorporated like Instagram and all these; they're all moving towards video. And then if you keep moving up, then you'll get into Twitter, and you'll get into Facebook, and then you start to skew older and older.

Jaime Masters: Old people stuff is Facebook now, yeah. It's great.

Jason Dorsey: And it's funny, because Gen Z we wrote about this in the book Gen Z would tell us that they have these Finstagram accounts, which is a fake Instagram where they're friends with their mom, or dad, so they think that they're being all well-behaved, but then they actually have a fake one over here that's for all their friends, and only their friends know. And so, it's those sort of things that are playing out, which is quite entertaining. So, as you start to think about that, it makes sense why Facebook would make the acquisitions it did, and why different platforms are valued in different ways.

Now, as you travel around the world, you're gonna get different platforms, and I think that's important. Global brands have to think about this very differently than we do. And our goal, always, is: If you want to be out there, either focus on one or two platforms that's usually the best and really get good at those or, create content that works across all of them, so you're not having to create the same piece of content five different ways. Otherwise you're just creating tremendous work.

And then, measure everything. Everything should be measured. If you're not measuring it, you don't know if it's working or not, you might as well go burn your money, and we can't do that right now. We really gotta have our act together in this sort of COVID-19 world that we're in. Hopefully we'll come out of it eventually, soon.

But there's so much uncertainty right now that small business owners in particular have to pay attention to every single dollar, and I think this is at least for me; I've owned my business for 24 years there's never been a time more when we have to pay attention to where we're spending our money. There's massive uncertainty in the world; there's uncertainty domestically; and we really need to be thoughtful about it. And social media is an easy way to waste money, which is why you saw a lot of the big brands pull back on their advertising.

Jaime Masters: Yeah. Waste money and time. And unfortunately, if you don't have the data which a lot of small business owners don't they're like, Eh, this is what they tell me to do, and so therefore, at least I have activity like you were saying. Please, anybody that's listening right now and if your avatar has nothing to do with what he just said: Stop it! So much time is going somewhere else! What about TikTok and Snapchat, though, I know big brands are advertising on TikTok, but small business owners don't really have that, like they have that with Facebook, and Instagram. Right?

Jason Dorsey: Correct. Now, what we are seeing is that small business owners that start to become personality-driven which is really what TikTok has become, right? If you're gonna go and put on funny videos to promote whatever your business is, then that's something that can work for some people. But again, you've got to make sure. Let me just give you some example. If you're a bakery I keep going back to that but if you're a bakery, and you're on TikTok, that's awesome; but people can only buy from the bakery within a certain geographic area.

So, building a following in another city doesn't help you unless you're suddenly gonna start selling merchandise or something else that you can actually ship to them. But, for all these reasons, you need to be more geographically specific. And so, that's what we would tell people. There's not one-size-fits-all solution. But really understand you know this, I'm in venture capital you have to really understand the constraints of the business in order to optimize for the space that you have. And so many people don't want to admit what their constraints are.

But if you get real deep under the constraints these are the constraints; I'm a bakery; this is our geographic area, because of shipping, and labor, and traffic, and whatever else then you can really optimize to make the most of that. And then go, Oh, if we do that, now I can make it into a franchise, or open ten locations. I think people sometimes, God, want to go from zero to 10, when really you gotta get the first one right, optimize that, get the second one right, and then figure out, "Okay, what is starting to scale look like?" and then you can actually build a model.

Jaime Masters: I love this. With data to prove it all. Where does YouTube fit in all of that, though?

Jason Dorsey: We love YouTube. We're massive fans of YouTube. YouTube cuts across all generations, which is pretty interesting; still drives the most massive engagement the younger you go; but YouTube has really become a replacement for entertainment. So, there are tons of people that go on there and just watch YouTube. All different ages. Shockingly old ages. And what we see that's really neat, is people go to YouTube and they use it like a search engine. So, they would go in there and write, How to? whatever. Mow my yard, right, or whatever it is, or How to learn this, right? [Inaudible crosstalk] [0:33:12]

Jaime Masters: Fix a toilet. I did that the other day. It was great. Yeah.

Jason Dorsey: Yeah, right?

Jaime Masters: I mean, 12 videos. Wait, which type of toilet do I have? Awesome, that's how I do it.

Jason Dorsey: Exactly. So, what's interesting is we start our search for answers. We start the search on YouTube. So, if you're gonna become an information source, which is what we recommend for small businesses we think YouTube is one of the best, because you can use the same videos all over the place. And then, what you do is you write them, frequently, in the form of the questions and the answers. Make it really easy for YouTube to say, Oh, this is what somebody is looking for. And put that out, and then they have really good analytics.

So, we like YouTube a lot. It's maybe the one that we liked the most, and people use it really well. Others tend to be better sources for news and entertainment; certain types of brands. Lifestyle businesses, those tend to work really well. Some of the entrepreneurial pieces, if you're in professional services. There's also a place for LinkedIn, and I didn't want to skip over that one. LinkedIn, we find, is massively important for us.

So, I have about 30,000 connections on LinkedIn, and I tend to get a lot of work from LinkedIn, because it's where we share research, it's where we post videos, it's where we sort of put out in the world our thinking. It's the easiest way for us to reach lots of them. Again, video there works extraordinarily well. And so, I would encourage people that are listening: If you're in any type of professional services, or any type of B2B, anything like that, LinkedIn is probably the one that's the best fit for you to go and really spend the time. And now, LinkedIn is really giving you a ton of data, if you just take the time to go through the tutorials and learn how to do it. So, I'm a big fan of them.

Jaime Masters: So, does Gen Z like LinkedIn also?

Jason Dorsey: Nope. Nope. [Inaudible crosstalk/laughter] [0:34:40] that was purely for you're audience, and not for Gen Z at all. No, no. When we talked to Gen Z about LinkedIn, it's interesting. 1.), They don't really understand it; and 2.), they go, why would I create a profile? I don't have any jobs. And so, Gen Z is really interesting. So, they're getting their driver's license older than ever before. They're entering the workforce older than ever before. They're graduating from college and university if they graduate older than ever before. So, all those things are being shifted back, and so that's like, Okay, I'm 22. What do I put on LinkedIn? and it's a real [inaudible crosstalk][0:35:08]

Jaime Masters: But they care about benefits and stability! This is so counter-intuitive. Okay, this is why data matters. Right? I mean, you'd think if they care about those things, they'd be resear... I mean, I'm the old lady trying to predict what they're doing, so I know I'm wrong. But I find that so interesting. Do you think that eventually they'll catch up to LinkedIn? Or, do you think there's gonna be something else that's gonna be more professional for Gen Z coming up?

Jason Dorsey: I think in the next five years, there'll be another way to present yourself professionally online that will be a better fit for Gen Z. We've seen different examples of it that people have tried. LinkedIn being acquired by Microsoft bought them a long runway, because obviously that's a massive install base that they can work with right away. So, I think for many B2B, LinkedIn is gonna be where it's at. I think Gen Zers who are taught to use LinkedIn, particularly if they're going into financial services, or any of these things.

Or they go to college, and their [inaudible] services says, Here's how to build your profile, I think you're gonna see them start to use it. But for many others, that may not be the default place to go, and that's where it's gonna get really interesting. Because something will come out. And at the same time, I think, while you're seeing higher expectations around how you should look on LinkedIn, you're seeing this interesting debate about what you can and cannot post on social media. And can what you post on social media impact your job prospects?

Jaime Masters: Oh, too many things around that lately. Yeah.

Jason Dorsey: Yeah, tons of stuff around that. So, I think online presence in itself is going to be a very big deal over the next three to five years, and Gen Z is gonna drive a ton of that forward, just because their relationship is so much different. They've been posting on there since they were 9, so it's a very different world than the highly curated world that many Gen Xers did because they were skeptical in the beginning. I think I kept it all the way through.

Jaime Masters: Even just thinking about the pandemic, though, and having the kids that couldn't see each other in person, they were connected. Like my kids were connecting on TikTok accounts, and watching each others TikToks, and not even talking to each other, which was also really weird, right? So, their level of connection, and where they drive connection, is just totally different than what I would even; I was like, Why don't you video chat with them? No, I don't want to. Okay, great. This is weird.

Jason Dorsey: Yeah. There's this real sense of not being alone that we find that kids are doing during COVID. And what I mean by that is that my daughter does this a lot, but we've observed it in other situations where kids will just leave a phone on, or they'll just leave video on looking at the ceiling. But they just feel like somebody's there. And they're doing whatever it is that they do. It's like, they're going about their life, or whatever. It's pretty fascinating. So, this sort of leads me into the COVID impact, because I think it's an important one.

What we're seeing is that we think the oldest members of Gen Z, the 18 to 22, 24, they're gonna bear all the worst of it right now. And our new study we just did, State of Gen Z: They're most likely to lose their job, more than any other generation; have their hours reduced; be assigned some other job they didn't sign up for; and on, and on, and on. Basically, all those plans that they had, in those those transitional years, just were all put on hold or wiped away. Just awful stuff going on. Now we're seeing it play out, over and over again.

So, they're the ones that are really gonna bear the brunt of it. Much like millennials like me crashed into the Great Recession. Right? It's timing. But where it gets really interesting and we put this in the Zconomy book is as you go younger, we think that the generation could actually make COVID into an asset. And here's why. You have young people that are all learning how to do online learning. And they're learning how to do online collaboration. And online problem-solving. And remote everything. And have stuff delivered, and have everything done.

So, all of a sudden, the barriers to learning and teamwork, and innovation, have just shattered for kids that are 8, 9, 10, 12 years old. 15 years old. So, you're seeing this big change, and I think over the next year because many kids are still not going to be going back to school, and if they do, then they'll end up back home what we're seeing is that their comfort with this continues to grow, and grow, and grow. They're problem-solving on Google Classroom, or whatever it is that they're using. Or teams, or whatever.

So, all of a sudden, they're much more comfortable with all of these technologies, which means they can learn anywhere on demand. And there's companies that we're working with right now that are figuring out personalized learning, meaning: A typical teacher has 20 kids, 25 kids in a classroom. My wife is a teacher. It's very hard to deliver personalized learning when you have that many kids. It's just really hard. It's possible; it's just really hard.

But with technology, what we're gonna see is that they can figure out exactly where your kid is, or my daughter is in math, and Spanish, and whatever else history and then serve her up exactly what she needs. Not to replace a teacher, but to augment that learning, so you really meet them where they are. That dynamic, or what they call adaptive learning: That's gonna be huge. And then, going further: They younger members of Gen Z have the benefit of learning from the older member's struggle. So they're gonna say...

Jaime Masters: Good.

Jason Dorsey: Is it worth it to pay for all that, yeah, right? That high dollar college. Should I consider a career in fashion merchandising if there's no more retail stores? All these sorts of things. The more runway you have to the transition years, the more time you have to adapt; and also, frankly, for your parents to adapt. And so, I think this could be a benefit long-term, and that's what we think here at CGK. It still has to play out, and obviously still there are some real mental health issues that are happening right now. Just awful things going on with COVID that the generation's having to deal with. My daughter says, I don't know if I can go see grandma, because what if I'm sick and I get her sick. That's heavy.

Jaime Masters: That's what I'm dealing with too.

Jason Dorsey: Right? So, but if you sort of big picture it and step back, and project a year two, three years out you can see that this generation's learning a whole new skill set. Sort of like the generation that came out of the Great Depression. All these different skills that they learned and how they ended up saving, and building all these amazing businesses, and so forth. So, that's what we predict will happen with the younger part. The older one, it depends how long it stays like this.

Jaime Masters: I love this so much.

Jason Dorsey: That's the long answer, but I'm really into it.

Jaime Masters: Okay, yes! Me too. So, my kids do adaptive learning. Thank goodness, because I couldn't do COVID without that. Because they're learning twice as fast, which is amazing. That being said, though, I'm dealing with a whole they're back to actually school, which nobody else really in the country is. And I'm working a lot of clients that are moms, that have million dollar companies, and they're like, And I have to figure out what to do with my children right now.?

And so, what are you seeing for the adaptive technology? Do you think public schools are going to get tha Or do you think we're splitting especially with COVID, I don't know if you have data on any of this, because I know this is so recent but it seems like things are sort of splitting off, and it's really interesting to have tutors now, to solve this problem. Which is cool, because it's thankfully changing something that I think has been broken for a long time anyway. So, right? But what are your thoughts?

Jason Dorsey: Yeah, education's in a really tough situation here, and there's tons of reasons why. And we're big proponents of education. I think the issue that we have to figure out is, What can the school do? Right? We're seeing schools really struggle to adapt right now, for tons of reasons. Some are physical. We don't have enough space. Some are technological. We don't have wi-fi. We got the kids computers or laptops, but we don't have wi-fi to them, so they can't get on. Or all these sorts of things. Kids are having to move around. There's a lot going on. What if they have one computer for five kids? All this stuff.

So, there's a lot of complexity there that people and schools have to figure out. I do think that ultimately schools will be one of the providers of the whether it's adaptive learning, or some other type of learning, that will help start to pull kids forward. It has to happen, because it's just really hard right now. I mean, I talk with a lot of teachers. It is very hard. It's hard to teach 25 kids in person, when you can see them all, and use your teacher ears, and all this stuff that you have. It's really hard when you're all on Zoom, right?

So, you've got that part. I also think that parents because remember, if we look at the age of the parents now, these are primarily Gen X and millennials. We're not scared of technology to help augment or help add to a lot of these things. So, now, you're seeing parents say, I'm gonna sign up for this subscription, or I'm gonna get this technology, or I'm gonna do these things to try to add resources to help my child or children during this time.?

Now, where it starts to break down and this, I think, is the controversial part is what if you can't afford those things? Who provides them? How does that handle, what if you go to a public school and half the kids get tutors and online learning and all these different things, and the other half don't, and when they come back to school, they're all in different places? How does the school handle that And I don't have the answers for those.

But that I think, if this drags on for a long period of time you're gonna see more and more of that, because people are gonna sort of self-serve what they need, and hopefully those technology companies will find a way to make this extremely low-cost, or get the foundations, or government, or somebody, to be able to provide that down to the parents who can't afford that. That, I think, is the big picture solve.

Short term, I think people that have the ability to spend whatever it is, fifty bucks a month, a hundred, a few hundred dollars a month, they're gonna do whatever they can to help their kids. That's just what they're gonna do, and this is what it is. But long-term, I think that's where it gets really interesting. You hear people say this and we see this in our research and they say, Oh, well the good news is all the kids are in it together. No, they're not.

Jaime Masters: Separately.

Jason Dorsey: They're having very different experiences. All around the country, and even in the same city. And so, at some point, we have to sort of recognize that, and figure out what we're gonna do about it, and how we're gonna help people where they are. Because that's always the trick.

Jaime Masters: Yeah, and thankfully the data can sort of show all the differences between things. I think that's really, really helpful. What about college? Because everybody's like, Oh, it's a bubble now, and even the people I did a survey from the Millionaires, and most of them don't believe in college anymore. So, where do you feel that's going?

Jason Dorsey: I think college or university is, in general, a great place to learn a lot in a short period of time. And so, that?s the way I've always sort of viewed it. I didn't finish college. I wrote my first book when I was 18 years old, but I was also a junior in college, because I started early. And I've worked at lots of colleges and universities. So, my sort of belief is, there's no one right path. And whenever we try to tell people there's only one path, or only seven steps, we really get ourselves in trouble very quickly. And so, I think the trick is:

For individual kids, there are some kids that really blossom and do extraordinarily well in college or university. Maybe they find themselves. They find a career, they find a mentor, they find these things. But I don't think it's right for everybody. And I work in tons of industries where you don't need a college degree in order to make a great living for you, your family, maybe build a business, and so forth. I think we have a lot of stigma around college degrees, or not having college degrees. It's funny. My wife has a PhD, right? And so, she went all the way. That's why she's the co-author of the book. Those big words in there, they're from her.

But the point of that is: Both paths work. I did'nt finish college. She got a PhD. We own a company together; actually, two. And so, it's just the way you make it work. And I think that's, to me, rather than a blanket, one-size-fits-all, you really have to see where kids are gonna do well. What I can share with you is, we know that if young people today take a gap year which is the fancy term for not going to school for a year it used to just be for rich people, or people from outside the U.S., we know the likelihood of them actually going back and completing is quite low.

So that's important for parents to understand, because it's very fashionable right now, but it's hard for 18, 19, 20 year-olds to go back. What we do see working well is either online learning, community colleges, or other places that are more cost-efficient, so you still feel like you're moving forward, even though you're maybe not on campus. In terms of the bubble working we work a lot with colleges right now and they're all doing their best. But there's so much complexity to an in-person college thing. I don't know how anybody's going to be able to pull it off, which is why we're seeing what we're seeing.

So, it's a tough time for everybody, but the main thing is, I think that somebody like me: I met my mentor when I was 18, at college. Now, I didn't finish. But had I not gone to that college, I would never have met him, and he is the one who inspired me to not focus on money, and instead think about my purpose. And then ended up leaving college to go write a book; and then sleeping on the floor of a garage apartment; and then being $50,000 in debt at 19; and my parents basically disowned me, and then I have these mentors trying to help me, and so I started my business.

All of that wouldn't have happened if I had not gone. That said, I didn't graduate, so people can read into it whatever they want. Jason, if you didn't go to college, you never would've been a success! Jason, if you'd graduated from college, your career would've been totally different! So.

Jaime Masters: Right? And like you said, it's very individual and per-person. And, who know what sort of synchronicities could've gotten you a different mentor when we go down that path, too. But I'm just seeing people right now, especially parents, that are sending their kids to college right now, that are like, Oh! Now it's online learning, and I'm spending 60 something thousand dollars a year for online learning that I could get for $2,000, and then realizing sort of the similarities of what those are, and the differences in cost.

Which, again, COVID, and who knows what's gonna happen in the future in regards to that, but it's just really interesting that their learning is so important, and we've now made it so much less expensive, overall, because of technology.

Jason Dorsey: Yeah, and I think that's where there's this hot debate about what is the point of college. Is the point of college to go and learn? Is the point of college to go find yourself, socialize, make friends for life, whatever? I mean, obviously I didn't fit in really anywhere I went, so I can't say that any of those things came out of it. But I did learn how to learn, which has served me really well, and I think, looking ahead, the question I would be asking people is, If you go to college, whatever the cost is, doesn't matter if you come out in four or five years, whatever it is. Does the path that you believe that you want to go on gonna be one that's gonna be doing well in four or five years? Or six years?

There's a whole lotta jobs that automation is gonna continue to make less valuable. There's industrial things that are just not gonna be career options anymore. And so, knowing that up-front, I think is helpful. That doesn't mean you still shouldn't do it. If you're passionate about fashion merchandising and you just really love it and you want to do it, and you don't care about whatever else. Go do your thing, right? I love speaking. I spoke for free. They bought me lunch at Pizza Hut when I was 18. That was it. I never got into it to build a business. But those sorts of things, I think you've gotta follow your passion. But I do think if you're going to college for return on your investment, then people are gonna ask much harder questions now than they would've five or ten years ago.

Jaime Masters: All right. Which is a good thing, not necessarily a bad thing in any way, shape, or form. I've realized how much time has gone by. I totally need to have you back on the show, just like I said before, because I literally have like at least ten more questions for you. Because the data, if we can use that data of course, everybody grab the book, so that way you actually have the data in your hands, so that you don't have to wait until the second interview with Jason but having that data can make us, especially as business owners, make longer-term decisions.

And I think, especially with COVID right now, we're making such short-term decisions because the future is so uncertain. And at least this will give us some data to be looking forward to fingers crossed, knock on wood that will help the bumpy path that we're gonna have. But we're also gonna be here pretty much, hopefully. And to make sure that we have that.

Jason Dorsey: Yeah.

Jaime Masters: Yeah, go ahead.

Jason Dorsey: Yeah. No, I get this all the time. Jason, they say, Jason, what's the right decision? I'm like, Well I don't know the right decision, but I can help you de-risk the decision. And if we can reduce the risk, and increase your likelihood of success, that's pretty awesome. Because every situation is still unique, but that's what data allows us to do, is it helps us to frame, sort of contextualize, lots of different factors, and be able to pick the one that we ultimately think is the right one; but in a way that's less emotional, and that's really the challenge, particularly for business owners.

Right? Our babies are our business, and we put our heart and our soul and our line of credit and we got our mom to co-sign. Like, whatever, we went all-out on this thing. It's very emotional. And sometimes the toughest decisions to make are the ones that you have to make from a non-emotional place, and data does help us to do that.

Jaime Masters: Which I so appreciate, that you're such a geek, just like me. Okay, well, you're doing the work, and all I have to do is just ask the questions. This is even better. So, I absolutely love it. Everybody go pick up the book. I'm gonna ask the last question. And besides grab the book, what is one action listeners can think this week to help move them forward towards their goal of a million?

Jason Dorsey: Yeah. To me, besides buy the book, thanks for that the best thing I've found that people can do is to step back. If you're a business owner, or you're planning your business: Think about what is the generational impact on your business. And what I mean specifically is, when you look at Gen Z, or millennials, or Gen X, or boomers: How do those different generations impact your business, on the employee side, and on the customer side? Because usually if you'll do that, you'll see a whole bunch of things you didn't see before.

Whether that's on recruiting and retaining and motivating, or whether that's on the marketing and the sales side. But just bringing that generational lens, or we call it generational snapshot, will really help you to see your business in a whole different way, or your future in a whole different way. And that's incredibly exciting, and very empowering, because you can do it without spending a nickel. Which I like.

Jaime Masters: I love it, and I love how much information I got about millennials and how much I don't like them, and I apparently follow all the rules. So, I really appreciate that you know more about me than I know about myself. Thank you so much, Jason. Where do we grab the book, and where do we find more about you?

Jason Dorsey: Yeah, absolutely. The book is called Zconomy: How Gen Z Will Change the Future of Business. You can get it on Amazon, or you can go to my website, which is jasondorsey.com/zconomy. And if you want to find more about me, just go to the website. You can read my story, all the businesses I started, some of the ones that failed, the whole deal. We're all in it together, and I would love to connect with you, there, so. And thanks again Jaime for having me on. I love being a fan of your show, and you, and who you are, and I'm really grateful for the time today.

Jaime Masters: I love it, and we will talk more about all the other businesses, and your story, and everything. But there was too much to unpack with your amazing book. So, thank you so much for coming on the show today. I hope your day's fantastic.

Jason Dorsey: Thanks. Thank you. You as well.

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